- November 30, 2012 at 3:54 am #92354
Hello! I have lots of questions to ask. Here is my story. Try to keep it to the point. I have reason to believe I have a candida overgrowth that became obvious in May 2012. Had symptoms for some time, but obvious symptoms struck me in May 2012. It started out as urinary tract burning/spasms in my bladder – I believe that candida may have entered my body via the urinary tract. I sought help from urologist/ob-gyn/general practice, etc. No results, other than traces of blood in urine. So I got the help from an integrative specialist. He ran stool samples through Diagnostecs and checked for several things. It was discovered I was low on vitamin d, I had a sterile stomach – no good bacteria, my thyroid was low, but not alarmingly low, I had a suppressed immune system, but the test showed no yeast. He also believes I do not have enough digestive enzymes and hydrochloric acid due to my constant constipation. My doc decided to support me for it anyway. On Aug 2, 2012, I started taking Candicid Forte, vitamin d drops (10,000iu/day), thyroid synergy to support thyroid functions, OrthoBiotic by Orthomolecular. I think that is all. I felt great for a whole month. The diet was a struggle more than anything. I learned to eat basically meat and no-starchy veggies and slowly added in coconut flour and almond flour. At 4 weeks, I started to feel bad and I had just doubled my probiotic (I was not aware of die-off at this point or what it meant). I went from 20 billion cfu to 40 billion in one day. IMMENSE DIE-OFF! From that point on, my thyroid has been on a downward spiral. I am now having reactions to almost all foods. I am having histamine reactions to most foods and now my supplements. My immune system seems to be attacking everything now. I initially chalked all my ailments up to die-off, but this has been going on since around Sept 1, 2012 – 3 months! I am not getting any let-up in symptoms. Each day is getting worse – ears ringing, constant dry mouth, peeing what seems like every 20 minutes, drinking 130 oz of water per day or more and still a dry mouth, numbness in hands, pins and needles feeling with the histamine reactions, sometimes achy joints, anxiety, jitters, boiling blood feeling and more. I just got back from another appt with the integrative doctor. Thyroid is worse (TSH is okay now) – t3 and t4 are now both low and now need full prescription to support it. We also did another stool test through Genova Diagnostics. It is called the CDSA 2.0 and looks for candida and such. My numbers came back in the normal range and I am now starting to show probiotics in my gut. He wants me to put the thoughts of candida to the back and totally focus on healing the gut at this point. Other than adding back in buckwheat, quinoa, long grain brown rice, and organic rice cakes, I have avoided most/all refined carbs. Maybe 1 cheat ever since August. I did experiment with some fruits in recent weeks, but that is all. My integrative doc says lets go 100% to healing the gut since not one single test showed candida. He had me start taking l-glutamine powder to start healing and sealing the gut and we are increasing the digestive enzymes and now adding hydrochloric acid (starting tomorrow). The digestive enzymes help with the constipation and now I can eliminate at least 1 time per day. I have been following posts on these forums for some time. I wanted to come forward and get some of you experts to comment on my situation. I am scared to abandon my low carb diet. I do not want to start back to day 1. I have already lost 25 pounds and I could not afford to lose even that. I have read where l-glutamine can be converted into ammonia and candida loves it. What do I do? Any insight or help you can provide? THANK YOU!!!November 30, 2012 at 12:18 pm #92367
Having really bad die off I believe! All over body rash again this AM. I need advice, guidance, support – anything! Absolutely miserable!!!November 30, 2012 at 3:21 pm #92374
I am confused about…what are your thyroid symptoms?
What are you taking to protect your liver and kidney from die-off toxins?
The length of your die-off and food reactions sound very similar to SIBO (small intestine bacterial overgrowth) and this can be tested for at most regular doctors offices.
At the same time I would test your liver enzymes, which will likely come back elevated.
Another reason you could be having perpetual die-off is your diet. If you are eating a bunch of rice, quinoa, etc…this shouldn’t be eaten on the diet. A great alternative is buckwheat which is only 25% starch. I’ve been on the diet for over a year and still don’t eat rice regularly. It should only be something you eat occasionally, a few times per month max.
L-glutamine is a great healing supplement for the gut and highly recommend it. It sounds like you have leaky gut if you don’t have SIBO…all of the supplements your doctor is giving you are to heal leaky gut and improve your digestion. This is a good thing, but he isn’t healing you holistically.
HCL is another great digestive aid and should not set anything back whatsoever from my experience. You likely are deficient in HCL like almost everyone on this forum.
A great way to gain weight is to eat more food; try eating 3-4 course meals every day and eat til your full like thanksgiving. Eventually as you heal, your body will not use it reserves to fight off the infection.
One thing I would examine further is whether the thyroid medication is a good idea. I personally believe that western medicine does not heal but only treats the symptoms. You might need to heal the thyroid in a different manner.
I’d also further examine candicid forte which we don’t recommend on the forum. It contains berberine which is basically an anti-biotic. We recommend taking just 1-2 antifungals at a time and not a multi-antifungal product. This product could be causing the problems.
You might have to do other tests to get a positive candida diagnosis. I would examine the candida immune complex test with genova (after the sibo test).
-rasterNovember 30, 2012 at 5:54 pm #92383
Thank you so so much, Raster!
My thyroid symptoms are nightsweats, cold hands/feet, numbness in hands, constipation, dry hair, nails don’t grow out without splitting/peeling, losing hair, heat intolerance, gatigue, tingling in limbs, lightheadedness, etc. I know there is more, but I am drawing a blank. As for protecting my liver and kidneys, I was not aware of die-off symptoms until sometime in September and started digging around – thought I was having reactions to my supps. I found this site and have been trying to self-teach on what to do. I recently bought some milk thistle from our local Vitamin Shoppe and I do nightly foot soaks with epsom salts. About 1 time per week, I do a full-body bath in epsom salts. I drink approx 100-120 oz of water per day. That is about all for the liver/kidneys. Do you have additional suggestions? At my last appt, my internal meds dr said my liver was high and I am getting retested next week. I believe the # is to be around 1.2 and I am at 1.5. I looked back at my diet log and I was eating quinoa and rice/rice crackers as late as 11/17 and then got totally fed up with everything and researched a fruitarian approach. On 11/18 I ate like a fruitarian and by 11/20, I knew I had made a mistake. My integrative doctor told me to begin the GAPS diet to begin healing my gut. I am now on Day 10 – maybe this is why I am feeling so miserable. Maybe this is new die-off?? I am not following the full GAPS diet – still in introductory stages. I am not adding in carrots, sweet potatoes, and fruit (on accident, I did eat an apple a few days ago forgetting I was feeding potential candida since my doc thinks we shoud be focusing 100% on gut healing. My doc does think I am very low on hcl as well as enzymes. Once I added enzymes to my meals, I started having BM’s daily, but not until then. I am waiting on my NOW Hcl to arrive via mail and will be starting it as well. Through Genova, my test was a CDSA – Comprehensive Digestive Stool Analysis. Mycology was one of the tests for candida albicans. I had a +1 and my doc said it is impossible to have 0 because we all have some candida in our bodies naturally. +1 is considered non-pathogenic, but +2 is considered potential pathogen. It looks like, if I am reading this right, it would take a +5 to be a pathogen – not sure though. It had to be at least +2 for the lab to do further testing on it. So, we could not identify anything more about it. So…..there is another candida test they offer? All parasite testing came back negative.
I am really scared since I have been battling the die off for so long. I did not eat a single grain for almost 2 months, never cheated. I was feeling pretty good and made a paleo/candida safe birthday cake with all good ingredients. It was a turning point for me, and I have gone downhill since. I had no die off for that entire time period. It is when I doubled up on my OrthoBiotic by Orthomolecular that things went really bad with my thyroid. Here’s my numbers:
Dates: 7/18/12 9/10/12 11/14/12
TSH 2.53 / 2.95 / 1.95
T3 2.82 / 1.86 / 1.90
T4 1.04 / 1.00 / .68
Reverse T3 20 / 24 / 11
I was worried about adding in l-glutamine for fear of feeding any pathogens. I will go ahead and start it again. I am just so scared – it seems like die off has been consistent since the beginning of September. Like I said, in the beginning, I felt most discomforts in urinary tract, but my stools changed at the same time as well. Hoping the urinary issues are just a secondary condition, my body trying to rid of toxins. Any additional help or thoughts you have after reading this? Sorry so long, but I need all the help and support I can get. I cannot live in this constant die-off phase. I can eat like this forever if I would become pain free/symptom free. Is there a let up in the near future? THANK YOU!November 30, 2012 at 6:11 pm #92385
Just an added note – after reading your link about anti-fungals. When I doubled up on probiotics on 9/2/12, this is when I experienced my first real die off (did not know it at the time). Then my anti-fungal was removed from my supps – we thought I was having a reaction to the supp. This is when I spiraled downhill and my thyroid became worse. I can say, when my die off symptoms seem to be at their worst, so does my thyroid – makes it hard to distinguish between die-off, thyroid, or other symptoms. It is hard to say if this is candida or another pathogen (SIBO or other). All tests come back negative for candida but I know something is wrong. I used to be very healthy, ran half marathons, strength trained, etc. Now, I am skin and bones, weak, cannot exercise, living a miserable life. It literally happened overnight or so it seems. 🙁 I appreciate any help you can offer!November 30, 2012 at 6:48 pm #92386
Check out these three posts about die-off:
Acupuncture is also a very effective way to detox and heal the body.
A few of your symptoms are not related to thyroid in my opinion. The hair and nails symptoms are related to minerals, or lack of them. Iodine is a mineral though…but you likely need many more. Most people are deficient in trace minerals so don’t freak out about this. I’d get some calcium, magnesium, zinc, and selenium for starters and see if this helps. Solgar makes a combo calcium/magnesium/zinc mineral vitamin and this can reduce costs. Selenium is sold by many brands. This also should help with constipation as well.
I hear you on the confusion of symptoms and I once had this as well. The most important thing you need to do is reduce your stress (right now and long term) and put faith that you will feel better in time. Time is the most important thing you need and it takes a long time to recover from candida and other health problems. You likely have multiple issues and this needs to be unravelled.
From my experience, I would eat rice and quinoa about 1x per week each max or less if possible. Buckwheat is a great replacement and is a prebiotic that feeds the beneficial bacteria in the gut. If I recall with my scant knowledge on SIBO, prebiotics and probiotics make it worse.
I would get tested for SIBO asap. Have you ever taken antibiotics?
If its not SIBO or candida, you could have parasites. Everyone has parasites but at different levels (same with candida). There is a wide variety of them and we simply could get them from the food we eat. Don’t worry though, they are killed the same way as candida and they also release die-off toxins.
Please list your current diet and the supplements you are taking.
I would try upping the amount of vitamin C you take and see if your die-off improves.
-rasterNovember 30, 2012 at 10:51 pm #92391
Very helpful information – thanks!!!
Okay, as for my diet. I am on Day 10 of GAPS. I cannot get off stage 1 and 2. Not sure if we can even have fermented foods with candida honestly. What about Greek full fat yogurt with no sweeteners? What about kefir and fermented veggies? I have reactions to most veggies whether they are raw or cooked. Seems like I get heart palps, rapid heart rate from most raw and then some cooked. I eat lots of hormone-free chicken and eggs (eggs are primarily egg yolks barely cooked – still runny. Lots of water and only water, other than chicken/turkey broths. LOTS of broths to help heal the gut. Meats are primarily chicken and some turkey. I do not eat any processed meats, no boxed foods of any kind, all my veggies are mostly frozen/some fresh, never canned. I really do not have cravings any more – occasional when at Thanksgiving, but I do not give in. The goal was to get through to full GAPS diet, but still keeping in mind that I do not want to feed candida/other pathogenic stuff. As for my water, I only drink bottled water, no longer drinking tap water. Drinking it at room temp.
My supplements: I will list them below. The ones that will be bolded are the things I currently take. The others are ones I took, but am no longer taking:
Milk Thistle 70 mg – 3 times/day Vitamin Shoppe – just started taking it
DigestzymeV – as needed with meals/OrthoMolecular – taking it for approx 1 month
L-Glutamine Powder 4.5g 2 times/day – Vitamin Shoppe – just started this week for gut healing
Carlson Fish Oil – 3 tsp/day – been taking it since July 2012
Chelated Molybdenum – 150mcg/tablet – Solgar brand – just started taking it today
Ortho Biotic – 20 billion cfu/day – OrthoMolecular – taking it since August 2012
Candicid Forte – 2 capsules 3 times/day – OrthoMolecular – stopped taking it 1 month ago
Magnesium Glycinate Chelate – as needed for constipation – OrthoMolecular
Liqui-D3 – 5 drops once/day 10,000iu total: Rx Vitamins-no longer taking. vitamin d is too high now.
Armour 30 mg for thyroid. Just started it this week. Was on Cytomel prior to Armour.
Okay, now for some food type supps. I was adding ginger root to water for some natural ‘tea.’ Nothing else added. I eat coconut oil (Spectrum Organic Coconut Oil, not Virgin kind though). I cook with it and sometimes just eat it out of the jar. I also add minced garlic (from a jar) to many foods. I also add onion when possible. Trying to use them as antifungals. I do not rotate them, just eat them when possible. I use Celtic Sea Salt not regular table salt in my foods. I use no sweeteners, but I chew Spry gum that is sweetened with Xylitol.
When I was a child, I was on anti-biotics off and on for annual tonsilitis or bronchitis, but nothing taken on a long-term basis. What I thought prompted this ‘overgrowth’ was the fact that I was having vaginal itching and I do not use OTC treatments. I ran tub water over my pelvic region and wonder if I ‘pushed’ the infection into my urinary tract from the direct water pressure to this area. Two days later, I was having what felt like spasms in my bladder/squeezing pain and have been on this battle ever since. Within those 2 days, I saw my GYN and they confirmed that I have bacterial vaginosis and gave me a 7 day antibiotic for it. So…wondering if I ‘pushed’ it into my urinary tract and it has me messed up now. Strange, I know. Also, the week before, I was pushing myself really hard to beat my 1 mile sprint time. Literally pushing the limits to run it in less than 7 minutes. I did this 2 times and wondered if the force messed up my gut somehow.
We had adopted a dog a month before my symptoms started as well. FOund out this dog lived in a home of mold. We surrendered the dog back to the shelter, but our dog has itchy fur now, too. Not sure if this is relavent, but thought I would share this info in case it was meaningful to someone else. Any additional thoughts?November 30, 2012 at 10:52 pm #92392
Oh, called my GP and they are referring me to a Gastroenterologist. My GP cannot do the Breath Test to check for SIBO. They did not know how to test for it. Not sure myself that a gastro doc is the one to see, either. Another question on the liver detox drink, is that safe to do at any time? It is the one with water, extra virgin olive oil, ginger, and garlic. I want to detox as much as possible to get through this. How many mg’s of milk thistle per day?November 30, 2012 at 11:10 pm #92393
It sounds like the antibiotics made things worse for you when you could’ve already been in a slightly fragile state.
One thing to keep in mind is that even though this hit you all at once, there was likely very slight changes in time all before this that led up to this. For me, my first day of symptoms occurred after taking a mint that had aspartame in it. I think this messed up my immunity somehow (or something internally) and all of the sudden I felt really bad and had my first heart palpitations. But months and years leading up to that day I was slowly getting worse in my health but I hardly noticed. My digestion never was good and I never had more than one BM a day for most of my life. I took every single antibiotic out there for my strept that never went away (and had tonsils removed) so I definitely set myself up for disaster over a decade ago.
I am unsure if the dog could effect things negatively but its good to be safe than sorry. I am freakishly afraid of mold and this is another reason why I got ill in the first place.
If your digestion ever was poor, this could be the cause of this as well. If food is allowed to ferment it can feed all sorts of bugs in our guts including candida. Be sure to chew your food as much as possible:
-rasterNovember 30, 2012 at 11:25 pm #92394
You are expressing some really good points. I have never been a regular person – years of constipation (or moreso having BM’s every few days or longer/shorter). I do not remember having daily BM’s until recent weeks (hoping that is a good sign). I have always felt an empty burning sensation – just chalked it up to running on empty due to my previously intense workout regimens (weight trained and/or ran 5 miles on many days). Lots of steady state cardio that made me feel empty. Never thought it could be lack of stomach acid. A year or so prior I noticed more mucous in my throat when getting ready in the AM. Always an egg-like substance/amount that I would have to spit out. Watery eyes,sensitivity to smells as long as I can remember, allergy to our cat, but just when I touch him. We still have the two cats and one dog – the one that still itches himself. I actually give him olive oil and garlic in his dog food. I did have pinworms as a young child after playing in leaves and biting my nails. I was sick as a child, but rarely as an adolscent/adult. My brother has celiac disease and I have been checked via saliva and I think stool tests. No celiac, but gluten sensitivity. Could be the leaky gut issue. Nightsweat had been going on for approx 1 year prior. I chalked it up to my age (41), but looking back, that is too young. Hair started to turn drier approx 3 years ago – looking back at pictures. I was under a lot of stress around 2006 and again in 2009. Lots of stress. It kind of lingered on emotionally for a few years, until approx 1 1/2 years ago. Just some more history/info. I appreciate any helpful advice you have to share. What do you think about those supplements and questions on the liver detox drink? Am I going to ever get through this?December 1, 2012 at 12:45 am #92400
Also meant to add that I always had motion sickness as a child into adulthood. Have heard that is a sign of low stomach acid, not too much like people commonly believe. As for my thyroid symptoms, I also have low body temp around 97.9 is normal for me. My pulse is typically around 62 but always chalked it up to my workouts keeping it low. My integrative doc thinks it is relative to the thyroid. As for the diet, do you have to eat a certain percentage of protein vs. veggies? What is recommended as for total carb count for the day? Like I said earlier, I eat lots of frozen veggies and can eat an entire bag 16 oz in one meal. But, the sugar still adds up even with veggies. What are your thoughts on that? Sorry for so many posts.December 1, 2012 at 3:03 am #92404
Able900, who I learned a lot of my info from, feels you should eat meat(chicken and fish only) 1-3x per week while I feel one serving per day is ok. If you get too much gas(methane) I feel this is too much meat. Also eat as close to organic meat as well.
I don’t have recommendations on carb counts or veggie amounts. The big thing is to reduce the amount of sugar you eat by avoiding high sugar vegetables and high starch vegetables (with the exception of rutabaga which brings more benefit than detriment). High starch vegetables include potatoes, carrots, peas, etc. High sugar veggies include carrots, beats, cabbage, etc.
I also recommend eating all organic, this is very important.
The only thing that surprises me is you are not taking an antifungal, yet your die-off is so extreme.
This is some of the liver stuff I take but I don’t see the amounts. I used to take 4 of these per day or 400mg:
-rasterDecember 1, 2012 at 6:40 am #92419
jameskepParticipantTopics: 25Replies: 220
Listen to your body on the L-glutamine. L-Glutamine is usually taken when pathogens are at the bare minimum and your ready to heal your gut. If you take the L-glutamine(on a empty stomach) and it feels like its causing fermentation/possible brain fog or an ammonia reaction than you might not be ready for it. Otherwise, just pace yourself and see if it helps.
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