Influence of fermented milk on gut microbiota !!

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  • #75402

    dvjorge
    Participant
    Topics: 283
    Replies: 1368

    This study may confirm that modulating the main enterotypes of human gut microbiota can be very difficult or impossible using pharmaceutical probiotics or fermented products.

    http://www.mdnews.com/news/hd/2011_44/hd_658250

    This is the abstract:

    http://stm.sciencemag.org/content/3/106/106ra106
    Jorge.

    #75412

    Marbro
    Member
    Topics: 19
    Replies: 252

    interesting study dvjorge but I noticed it was done with comercial fermented milk and If I read it correctly they used 5 strains in a mice to mimic human intestinal flora.

    I would love to see them do a taste with actual people on Kefir grains and its effect considering that the grains and the comercial product are worlds apart.

    Thanks for sharing.

    #75428

    dvjorge
    Participant
    Topics: 283
    Replies: 1368

    Marbro wrote: interesting study dvjorge but I noticed it was done with comercial fermented milk and If I read it correctly they used 5 strains in a mice to mimic human intestinal flora.

    I would love to see them do a taste with actual people on Kefir grains and its effect considering that the grains and the comercial product are worlds apart.

    Thanks for sharing.

    That study was done by the most advanced scientific group working for the Genome Proyect in US, known as Gordon group. Commercial Kefir is made with grains and have the same amount of bacterial species that the home made. In the home, you can extend the fermentation process if you want, but I see no different regarding to this study.

    Jorge.

    #75440

    Marbro
    Member
    Topics: 19
    Replies: 252

    dvjorge wrote:

    interesting study dvjorge but I noticed it was done with comercial fermented milk and If I read it correctly they used 5 strains in a mice to mimic human intestinal flora.

    I would love to see them do a taste with actual people on Kefir grains and its effect considering that the grains and the comercial product are worlds apart.

    Thanks for sharing.

    That study was done by the most advanced scientific group working for the Genome Proyect in US, known as Gordon group. Commercial Kefir is made with grains and have the same amount of bacterial species that the home made. In the home, you can extend the fermentation process if you want, but I see no different regarding to this study.

    Jorge.
    This article that you posted mentioned not only comercial kefir but only 5 strains for the test. Home made kefir can have over 24 strains. Moreover comercial kefir uses pasterized milk and usually adds the strains to a yogurt based milk. They add sugars and other sweeteners and preservitives for flavor. This is completely different that using raw milk and letting it ferment properly from kefir grains. By the way I dont know any comerical kefirs that make it from grains? granted orginally sure but its some powerded starter they use. Moreover The most strains I ever heard of a comercial kefir having is 12. And I have never seen it. The most I can find in my area was 10 in a comercial kefir made from pasterized goat milk. If you know of a comercial kefir that is the same as home made kefir, by all means lets see it.

    most comerical Kefir is like ACV without mother compared to ACV with the mother. complete crap except for taste.

    This study fell short in my book.

    #75445

    Javizy
    Member
    Topics: 20
    Replies: 945

    I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make. The study doesn’t seem to make any conclusion that’s relevant to us. It doesn’t even give an idea of the number of CFUs. Certainly not worthy of the exclamation marks in the title.

    I read a more interesting study published this month involving a single lactobacillus strain, Enterococcus faecalis, being given to hay fever sufferers for two months. At the end of the study, their symptoms had reduced by something like half and tests showed an increase in bifidobacterium colonies and a significant reduction in a pathogenic bacteria called Clostridium perfringens.

    If you’re trying to suggest there’s no benefit in taking them, there are already hundreds of studies you’d need to debunk that say the opposite.

    #75452

    dvjorge
    Participant
    Topics: 283
    Replies: 1368

    Marbro wrote:

    interesting study dvjorge but I noticed it was done with comercial fermented milk and If I read it correctly they used 5 strains in a mice to mimic human intestinal flora.

    I would love to see them do a taste with actual people on Kefir grains and its effect considering that the grains and the comercial product are worlds apart.

    Thanks for sharing.

    That study was done by the most advanced scientific group working for the Genome Proyect in US, known as Gordon group. Commercial Kefir is made with grains and have the same amount of bacterial species that the home made. In the home, you can extend the fermentation process if you want, but I see no different regarding to this study.

    Jorge.
    This article that you posted mentioned not only comercial kefir but only 5 strains for the test. Home made kefir can have over 24 strains. Moreover comercial kefir uses pasterized milk and usually adds the strains to a yogurt based milk. They add sugars and other sweeteners and preservitives for flavor. This is completely different that using raw milk and letting it ferment properly from kefir grains. By the way I dont know any comerical kefirs that make it from grains? granted orginally sure but its some powerded starter they use. Moreover The most strains I ever heard of a comercial kefir having is 12. And I have never seen it. The most I can find in my area was 10 in a comercial kefir made from pasterized goat milk. If you know of a comercial kefir that is the same as home made kefir, by all means lets see it.

    most comerical Kefir is like ACV without mother compared to ACV with the mother. complete crap except for taste.

    This study fell short in my book.

    Marbro,
    Most of the bacterial species present in Kefir aren’t studied. The reason that Kefir has more bacterial specie present doesn’t mean every manufacture will have to mention them in the labels. They mention the strains that could offer health benefit according to the studies. Can you image a bottle of commercial Kefir with a label mentioning 50 bacterial species and most of them don’t even known ??

    I believe the scientific group choose the most significant species for the study according to what they were looking for. They aren’t telling, neither I am, there aren’t benefits of drinking fermented milk products. They tell there isn’t modification in the pattern of the flora after ingestion of fermented product. This is a thing well known because science hasn’t proved pharmaceutical probiotics offer permanent colonization of the human gut. They are transient organism that offer temporary benefits by the time you be ingesting them. People, including me in the past, want to believe this is possible, but the fact is, there isn’t scientific proof this happen so far.

    I am taking a pharmaceutical probiotic blend at this time because I really believe some health benefits they are doing, but I am totally neutral when the word colonization is mentioned.
    This same group has many papers about the intestinal flora. They have mentioned many important things about human indigenous bacterial species.

    The reason because I use Kefir and probiotics don’t make me to be blind about what is true or not.
    I posted the study like any other. Sometimes the studies say what we want to hear, sometimes, no.
    Jorge.

    #75456

    Marbro
    Member
    Topics: 19
    Replies: 252

    dvjorge wrote:

    interesting study dvjorge but I noticed it was done with comercial fermented milk and If I read it correctly they used 5 strains in a mice to mimic human intestinal flora.

    I would love to see them do a taste with actual people on Kefir grains and its effect considering that the grains and the comercial product are worlds apart.

    Thanks for sharing.

    That study was done by the most advanced scientific group working for the Genome Proyect in US, known as Gordon group. Commercial Kefir is made with grains and have the same amount of bacterial species that the home made. In the home, you can extend the fermentation process if you want, but I see no different regarding to this study.

    Jorge.
    This article that you posted mentioned not only comercial kefir but only 5 strains for the test. Home made kefir can have over 24 strains. Moreover comercial kefir uses pasterized milk and usually adds the strains to a yogurt based milk. They add sugars and other sweeteners and preservitives for flavor. This is completely different that using raw milk and letting it ferment properly from kefir grains. By the way I dont know any comerical kefirs that make it from grains? granted orginally sure but its some powerded starter they use. Moreover The most strains I ever heard of a comercial kefir having is 12. And I have never seen it. The most I can find in my area was 10 in a comercial kefir made from pasterized goat milk. If you know of a comercial kefir that is the same as home made kefir, by all means lets see it.

    most comerical Kefir is like ACV without mother compared to ACV with the mother. complete crap except for taste.

    This study fell short in my book.

    Marbro,
    Most of the bacterial species present in Kefir aren’t studied. The reason that Kefir has more bacterial specie present doesn’t mean every manufacture will have to mention them in the labels. They mention the strains that could offer health benefit according to the studies. Can you image a bottle of commercial Kefir with a label mentioning 50 bacterial species and most of them don’t even known ??

    I believe the scientific group choose the most significant species for the study according to what they were looking for. They aren’t telling, neither I am, there aren’t benefits of drinking fermented milk products. They tell there isn’t modification in the pattern of the flora after ingestion of fermented product. This is a thing well known because science hasn’t proved pharmaceutical probiotics offer permanent colonization of the human gut. They are transient organism that offer temporary benefits by the time you be ingesting them. People, including me in the past, want to believe this is possible, but the fact is, there isn’t scientific proof this happen so far.

    I am taking a pharmaceutical probiotic blend at this time because I really believe some health benefits they are doing, but I am totally neutral when the word colonization is mentioned.
    This same group has many papers about the intestinal flora. They have mentioned many important things about human indigenous bacterial species.

    The reason because I use Kefir and probiotics don’t make me to be blind about what is true or not.
    I posted the study like any other. Sometimes the studies say what we want to hear, sometimes, no.
    Jorge.
    The information about comercial Kefir, I am only getting from you. I have not heard or seen it from anywhere else in the manner you speak of. Im sorry I just do not believe you over all the onther information I have read concerning comercial kefir.

    It sounds to me this study you found inforced your beliefs not being helpful but again, Its not a good study for what I consume and am interested in. Which is home made kefir from grains and raw milk. As I mentioned above, I have never heard of a comercial kefir with more than 12 strains and never heard of them hiding strains except from you. Which is just not good enough to take seriously.

    This is an example of reason why comerical kefir fails compared to the real deal. This is only one of many examples that can be found.

    What are the reasons behind all the recommendations to use genuine milk kefir grains to make
    home-made kefir, vs buying it at the store?

    Like most things in life, a good thing just cannot be packaged or processed. It always
    ends up taking away some portion of the quality or essence of the food when creating
    something ‘safe’ and with a shelf life. Commercial Kefir found in stores is limited by the
    bottling process. Companies need to suppress or halt yeast fermentation and culturing in
    order to prevent continued carbonation or the bottles could explode. This process leaves
    you with commercial kefir which, while still good, typically has mild and/or suppressed
    culture, and less varieties of bacteria and yeast.

    Although most all of the commercial kefir contains live probiotics, the companies have
    limitations as to how they can process kefir so that it can be ‘standardized’ and regulated.
    Some companies have a ‘mother batch’ with live grains, which they then take kefir from, to
    use as the starter (instead of the grains), to make their kefir. Others combine carefully
    chosen strains of bacteria and yeast to mimic the flavor of genuine kefir. While both are
    still healthy choices, you are not getting the full spectrum at the full potency (some
    brands advertise 10 strains, genuine kefir has upwards of 40-60 strains) that home-made
    kefir with kefir grains will give.

    You may notice that most store-bought kefir is not carbonated. While a lot of people don’t
    care much if their kefir is carbonated or not, you do have the option to make your home-
    made kefir nice and fizzy – a unique treat!

    Popular Kefir starter packets, while nice, do not produce genuine kefir and do not offer
    the same qualities that exist in traditional milk kefir made by milk kefir grains. These
    packets are often mistaken as genuine but only live kefir grains produce the traditional
    genuine kefir. Kefir packets do not offer the same probiotic content (only 7 strains of
    probiotics, genuine kefir has around 40-60 strains), acid contents, the kefiran (possibly
    one of the most health-promoting agents in kefir, a special polysaccharide formed by the
    grains) and many of the other natural healthful by-products that occur specifically during
    fermentation from the live grains.

    read more http://www.yemoos.com/milkvs.html

    #75467

    Javizy
    Member
    Topics: 20
    Replies: 945

    Marbro wrote: It sounds to me this study you found inforced your beliefs not being helpful but again, Its not a good study for what I consume and am interested in. Which is home made kefir from grains and raw milk.

    It’s not a good study for anything on this forum. The fact that these bacteria don’t colonise in the gut has never been in doubt, and a study from a decade ago could’ve proved the same point. I would say posting it achieved nothing, but I’d imagine newbies reading it would go away with the impression that probiotics are ineffective regardless of the effects they have on friendly flora and pathogens, digestion, immunity etc. This isn’t something anyone creating a thread should want to achieve here, but it seems to be an agenda of Jorge’s.

    #75471

    dvjorge
    Participant
    Topics: 283
    Replies: 1368

    Studies like that one took me to do several Fecal Implants at home using my daughter as a donor. I know several more guys who have done fecal transplants because they found the true about pharmaceutical probiotics. The web is full of myths about taking probiotics to recover the intestinal flora when that isn’t true. In my point of view, bringing the true to the light help more than support myths. If more people knew the true about probiotics, there will be doing other things that may really give them the flora back. It is only the wait you want to see the things.

    I know who have spent thousand buying the best marketed probiotics to end with no beneficial flora shown in CDSA. This is reported in candida forums continually.
    I spent a fortune the first two years buying probiotics to recover my flora to end with nothing at the end. I really thanks study like this because the probiotic market is based in the ex peculation of manufacturers that are becoming rich over-valuating the real benefits they offer. This are my thoughts about it even when I am using probiotics to get its temporary benefits.
    Jorge.

    A contrast to this study showing the successful method.

    http://www.genomeweb.com/sequencing/fecal-transplantation-alters-rat-gut-microbiomes

    This is the complete study. Worth every word.
    http://genome.cshlp.org/content/20/10/1411.full

    #75475

    Marbro
    Member
    Topics: 19
    Replies: 252

    Javizy wrote:

    It sounds to me this study you found inforced your beliefs not being helpful but again, Its not a good study for what I consume and am interested in. Which is home made kefir from grains and raw milk.

    It’s not a good study for anything on this forum. The fact that these bacteria don’t colonise in the gut has never been in doubt, and a study from a decade ago could’ve proved the same point. I would say posting it achieved nothing, but I’d imagine newbies reading it would go away with the impression that probiotics are ineffective regardless of the effects they have on friendly flora and pathogens, digestion, immunity etc. This isn’t something anyone creating a thread should want to achieve here, but it seems to be an agenda of Jorge’s.

    Interesting, thank for posting. Most folks beleive that kefir can actually colonize the intestinal tract where Yogurt can not.

    “In 2008, when he fed Lactobacillus to mice with a transplanted human microbiome, he observed metabolic changes in the animals’ gut, liver, kidneys, and parts of the brain. Yet Nicholson discovered that the animals’ internal bacterial communities barely changed, suggesting that probiotics work by chemically signaling the microbes already living in the body, causing them to become more active.”

    “Predicting the effect of probiotics on an individual is difficult. “A lot of them work in some people but not others because of differences in a person’s biology, genetics, and environment,” Nicholson says. There is no conclusive evidence that commercial probiotic pills and foods will benefit someone who is already in good health. But David Relman, a microbiologist at Stanford University, notes that malnutrition may limit the gut bacteria that help digest nutrients, exacerbating the impact of a poor diet. “Many kids in the developing world are not able to make efficient use of their food supply,” he says. “A carefully constructed set of microbial strains could help them.”
    http://discovermagazine.com/2011/mar/04-trillions-microbes-call-us-home-help-keep-healthy/article_view?b_start:int=3&-C=

    thanks for sharing, its seems there is plenty to learn.

    #75478

    Marbro
    Member
    Topics: 19
    Replies: 252

    some more studies on the subject.

    “The term probiotic refers to live microorganisms that reside in the gastrointestinal tract and have beneficial effects on the host (De Simone et al. 1991; Lee and Salminen 1995). More than four hundred species of bacteria are estimated to survive in the gastrointestinal tract and these endogenous bacteria comprise the intestinal microflora. Even more species may be present but not culturable by the traditional plate count methods. After passage through the stomach and the small intestine, some probiotics survive and become established transiently in the large bowel. In order to survive in and colonize the gastrointestinal tract, probiotic bacteria need to express high tolerance to acid and bile and to have the ability to adhere to intestinal surfaces (Lee and Salminen 1995; Kirjavainen et al. 1998; Fujiwara et al. 2001).”

    http://scialert.net/fulltext/?doi=pjbs.2008.652.655

    #75483

    Javizy
    Member
    Topics: 20
    Replies: 945

    dvjorge wrote: Studies like that one took me to do several Fecal Implants at home using my daughter as a donor. I know several more guys who have done fecal transplants because they found the true about pharmaceutical probiotics. The web is full of myths about taking probiotics to recover the intestinal flora when that isn’t true. In my point of view, bringing the true to the light help more than support myths.

    If more people knew the true about probiotics, there will be doing other things that may really give them the flora back. It is only the wait you want to see the things.

    I know who have spent thousand buying the best marketed probiotics to end with no beneficial flora shown in CDSA. This is reported in candida forums continually.
    I spent a fortune the first two years buying probiotics to recover my flora to end with nothing at the end. I really thanks study like this because the probiotic market is based in the ex peculation of manufacturers that are becoming rich over-valuating the real benefits they offer. This are my thoughts about it even when I am using probiotics to get its temporary benefits.
    Jorge.

    A contrast to this study showing the successful method.

    http://www.genomeweb.com/sequencing/fecal-transplantation-alters-rat-gut-microbiomes

    This is the complete study. Worth every word.
    http://genome.cshlp.org/content/20/10/1411.full

    We know probiotics don’t colonise the gut. We know they offer numerous benefits regardless. We know fecal transplants are an interesting new way to achieve colonisation. There’s no conspiracy theory or crusade to fight against here.

    #75484

    dvjorge
    Participant
    Topics: 283
    Replies: 1368

    Javizy wrote:

    Studies like that one took me to do several Fecal Implants at home using my daughter as a donor. I know several more guys who have done fecal transplants because they found the true about pharmaceutical probiotics. The web is full of myths about taking probiotics to recover the intestinal flora when that isn’t true. In my point of view, bringing the true to the light help more than support myths.

    If more people knew the true about probiotics, there will be doing other things that may really give them the flora back. It is only the wait you want to see the things.

    I know who have spent thousand buying the best marketed probiotics to end with no beneficial flora shown in CDSA. This is reported in candida forums continually.
    I spent a fortune the first two years buying probiotics to recover my flora to end with nothing at the end. I really thanks study like this because the probiotic market is based in the ex peculation of manufacturers that are becoming rich over-valuating the real benefits they offer. This are my thoughts about it even when I am using probiotics to get its temporary benefits.
    Jorge.

    A contrast to this study showing the successful method.

    http://www.genomeweb.com/sequencing/fecal-transplantation-alters-rat-gut-microbiomes

    This is the complete study. Worth every word.
    http://genome.cshlp.org/content/20/10/1411.full

    We know probiotics don’t colonise the gut. We know they offer numerous benefits regardless. We know fecal transplants are an interesting new way to achieve colonisation. There’s no conspiracy theory or crusade to fight against here.

    I apologize if the study caused some discomfort. I didn’t post it with bad intention but only to bring the results of something new. It is only some months old and from one of the most important researcher teams in US.
    Jorge.

    #75495

    Able900
    Spectator
    Topics: 92
    Replies: 4811

    We know probiotics don’t colonise the gut.

    I know that’s the general opinion here on the forum, Javizy, and I certainly don’t intend to start another debate here, please trust me on that, however, just like Jorge, I believe that both sides of any subject discussed on the forum can perhaps be useful, and if nothing else, at least help us to open our minds to the fact that perhaps even research isn’t always conclusive.

    That’s why I’ve replied to this claim before on the forum since, according to certain research, it appears that it isn’t completely impossible for a certain percentage of lactobacillus bacteria obtained from commercial probiotics to colonize in human intestines. For me at least, these studies offer a little more than just a glimmer of hope because I don’t think that research claiming that it’s impossible for probiotic bacteria to colonize is 100% accurate if it’s occurred in even one study using human test subjects. Of course I’m not talking about the research Jorge has posted as I understand that it concerns commercial probiotic drinks and the research I’m speaking of concerns commercial probiotic capsules of specific lactobacillus strains.

    The research: A study was conducted on human subjects to test the colonization ability of oral probiotics containing specific strains of lactobacillus given as probiotic supplements to a group of volunteers; the volunteers were given a total of two doses a day for a total of 17 days at which point the lactobacillus probiotic was stopped. The volunteers then went through an 18-day washout period in an attempt to clear the intestines completely of bacteria. During this time, feces of the volunteers were tested for strains of bacteria. The samples were taken at days 0 and 18 during the oral dose period as well as during and following the washout period; and there were a total of 12 volunteers. The highest number of volunteers who continued to host the specific lactobacillus bacteria strains was 10 out of 12 samples, and the lowest number hosting these species of lactobacillus was 7 out of 12 samples.

    I don’t understand how the point was completely proven by the study, but then again, I don’t have access to the full details of the study, but only the published report; however, according to the report, the experiment revealed that specific beneficial bacteria of the lactobacillus species obtained by the human beings via the oral administration were capable of colonization in the human intestines.

    This was reported in the Applied and Environmental Microbiology journal in April 2010 as well as the Therapeutic Advances in Gastroenterology journal in May 2011.

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