High Beneficial Bacteria and Gut Infections

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This topic contains 17 replies, has 7 voices, and was last updated by  Floggi 5 years ago.

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  • #116645

    Tdog333
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    Topics: 25
    Replies: 245

    I wanted to start a new thread about reoccurring/chronic gut infections. For awhile I figured that once I could get my beneficial gut flora back the candida/other infections would be gone and I would have no trouble with those type of infections. I have read that candida can block the colonization of lactobactillus, and likewise the lactobactillus(and many other species) can crowd out candida and other pathogens.

    I’ve been doing everything I can to get my gut flora to repopulate after taking a TON of antibiotics. After seeing some recent test results I have managed to get my gut flora to come back, but I still have some indicators of infection.

    Here are some of the results:

    One of the pages from the organic acids test showing High Levels of Beneficial Bacteria, but also some indicators of some sort of overgrowth of bad bacteria.

    Here are the results of beneficial bacteria from the stool testing. The same test also didn’t find any bad bacteria or yeast(except for the saachromyces I was supplementing with at the time)

    I thought that with high levels of beneficial bacteria it would prevent anything pathogenic bacteria from inhibiting the gut, but I’m not sure what to think. It might just be picking up a small intestine overgrowth, while in the colon everything is fine?

    Anyone have any thoughts? Thanks guys

    I should also mention I do have a lot of signs of some sort of infection still (swollen lymph nodes, etc)

    #116646

    impossible
    Member
    Topics: 16
    Replies: 606

    I just want to point out for everyone you have elevated yeast markers in the OAT as well.

    I would also like to re-iterate that candida overgrowth occurs in the gut due to failure of the immune system. If you have a candida overgrowth, its because there is a malfunction of the immune system.

    #116664

    dvjorge
    Participant
    Topics: 283
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    I have high levels of Beneficial bacteria in my gut, still I have been battling a severe intestinal yeast overgrowth.

    The antagonistic bacterial flora play a protective but no definitive role against fungal colonization. The immune system is the main protective mechanism. If it fails, no matter if you have beneficial flora or not, the yeast will invade tissues.

    Be more worried about the immune system than the intestinal flora.

    Jorge.

    #116715

    jameskep
    Participant
    Topics: 25
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    The cells in our gut(intestinal immune system) outnumber our white blood cells by at least 10:1. Our good flora in our gut which can amount to trillions of cells it what is “primarily” responsible for keeping candida under control. Our white blood cells is what helps with an outbreak. In other words our good flora is the front line where as our white blood cells/ killer t cells etc… are the reinforcements.

    There needs to be enough bacteria/good flora in the gut to crowd out the yeast to prevent it from turning into a fungal colony. Someone taking antibiotics can alter the composition of the bacteria causing less antagonistic strains to the yeast. So some tests might say you have high levels of bacteria, but is it really the right kind of bacteria to keep candida from going fungal? Anti-bacterials can really screw up the balance in the gut. White blood cells don’t stand a chance against an whole intestinal army of yeast/fungus in the gut. For anyone to have a fighting chance to overcome a “severe” candida infection the good flora has to be restored/rebalanced or it will be an endless battle. This battle can be so damn hard because our gut ecosystem is very complicated and fungal candida is so adaptive and resilient. It becomes a numbers game in the gut…who can occupy the most parking spaces in the gut in competition for food and survival. The more yeast or fungus that occupies space in our gut the less of a chance our white blood cells have to keep the infection in check. Not to mention that the good flora in our gut is what helps neutralize/break down some of the toxins/antigens that candida produces. Some good bacteria are responsible for breaking down ammonia/mannans etc…

    For someone who has severe fungal candida(candida is occupying most of the gut) needs to be more worried about their gut flora. For someone who has mild candida they may need to fine tune their immune system to keep the mild outbreak under control. The bottom line is that the good flora has to be there and be in the right “balance” to keep someone’s gut health in order.

    #116719

    Tdog333
    Member
    Topics: 25
    Replies: 245

    I agree to an extent, but at the same time I have all the major strains and in higher than normal amounts.

    I had candida pretty seriously. And this was after taking some really heavy heavy antibiotics. I’m 100% sure that after those abx I had little to no gut flora left.

    So personally I think the gut flora plays a protective role in the fact that the infection will take longer to spread and grow. Whereas with no flora it can exponentially grow. But ultimately I think the immune system is necessary to keep it completely wiped out.

    I think a good example of this is my brother, I got him to go and get a stool test although he is 100% healthy and has no symptoms. He hasn’t taken abx in a long time and lives a pretty healthy life except he eats a ton of sugar. His test came back positive for candida albicans +1 AND high levels of beneficial bacteria.

    I’m assuming his immune system isn’t quite up to par due to some methylation issues or something else possibly.

    #116723

    jameskep
    Participant
    Topics: 25
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    What kind of symptoms are you experiencing now?

    #116725

    Tdog333
    Member
    Topics: 25
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    jameskep;55244 wrote: What kind of symptoms are you experiencing now?

    The two main ones are very short of breath and energy/ chronic fatigue and some digestive trouble, though it has gotten 100x better than it was. I have a lot of little minor stuff, insomnia, splinter hemmorhages, minor anxiety, a bunch of stuff like that.

    #116728

    dvjorge
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    Topics: 283
    Replies: 1368

    Tdog333;55240 wrote: I agree to an extent, but at the same time I have all the major strains and in higher than normal amounts.

    I had candida pretty seriously. And this was after taking some really heavy heavy antibiotics. I’m 100% sure that after those abx I had little to no gut flora left.

    So personally I think the gut flora plays a protective role in the fact that the infection will take longer to spread and grow. Whereas with no flora it can exponentially grow. But ultimately I think the immune system is necessary to keep it completely wiped out.

    I think a good example of this is my brother, I got him to go and get a stool test although he is 100% healthy and has no symptoms. He hasn’t taken abx in a long time and lives a pretty healthy life except he eats a ton of sugar. His test came back positive for candida albicans +1 AND high levels of beneficial bacteria.

    I’m assuming his immune system isn’t quite up to par due to some methylation issues or something else possibly.

    During my first years learning about this syndrome, I thought the intestinal flora was the main protective mechanism, but later after learning more and more, I am convinced it is the immune system. In fact, the best articles written about this syndrome blame an immune fail as the causative factor. Dr. Truss pointed to it many times. There are a lot of evidence it is the immune system. A clear example is vaginal candidiasis. Also, there are many people who takes antibiotics for months and even years and never develop this syndrome. People who battle it focused on the bacterial flora never reach a cure. I am tired of reading people battling it that way without success. However, those who focus on the immune system, chelation, immune restoration report a cure soon or later.

    Yes, the flora protect to some point but when the immune system fail, the yeast growth with flora or not flora. Moreover, when the flora recover, because it does over time, the yeast don’t go away.

    Jorge.

    #116729

    raster
    Participant
    Topics: 104
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    I pretty much agree with dvjorge and one of the major centers of the immune system is the thyroid gland. If you are deficient in iodine, then this organ will not work properly. Once you start healing it properly, you should generally feel a lot better and stronger. This involves a different protocol, but you should be able to heal the thyroid some rather quickly from my experience if done properly. Wish I figured this out sooner but I didn’t put all of the symptoms together.

    -raster

    #116731

    Tdog333
    Member
    Topics: 25
    Replies: 245

    raster;55250 wrote: I pretty much agree with dvjorge and one of the major centers of the immune system is the thyroid gland. If you are deficient in iodine, then this organ will not work properly. Once you start healing it properly, you should generally feel a lot better and stronger. This involves a different protocol, but you should be able to heal the thyroid some rather quickly from my experience if done properly. Wish I figured this out sooner but I didn’t put all of the symptoms together.

    -raster

    Yes I agree, I think for each person it’s going to be a different cause of immune system failure. For example I think i did have some hypo thyroid, but I believe it is healed or doing better now. My body temp used to be 95-96, but its now steady at about 98.6. I did supplement with iodine after i felt my adrenals were decent.

    There’s so many things that can weaken the immune system, whether it’s exposure to toxins, molds, heavy metals, bad methylation, etc.

    #116772

    TheXtremisT
    Participant
    Topics: 12
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    This stuff about the immune system sounds like so much sense.

    When I had my symptoms (similar but nowhere near as bad) a few years ago after a few years of antibiotics, I would catch a cold like 3-4 times a year.
    But eating healthily (but not sticking to a restrictive diet at all) and doing weight training in the gym, helped me overcome pretty much everything except my heartburn and jock itch.

    Since the end of 2012 and LOADS of antibiotics, my symptoms came roaring back and worse than ever before. I had surgery and haven’t been to the gym. So my immune system got worse, and all my hypothyroid problems came back worse.

    I got better v quickly (June 2013 started the diet), with persistent digestive problems which seem good now but with a few blips, and need to put weight on so I can go to the gym more.

    I’d love to know more ways of improving my immune system, since the gym has done so in the past, but I can’t do too much at this stage.

    Any suggestions? I’d like to experiment with Iodine supplements, but my blood tests came back negative for hypothyroidism (which is wrong, based on everything I have, and the fact they haven’t adequately tested).

    #116774

    Tdog333
    Member
    Topics: 25
    Replies: 245

    TheXtremisT;55293 wrote: This stuff about the immune system sounds like so much sense.

    When I had my symptoms (similar but nowhere near as bad) a few years ago after a few years of antibiotics, I would catch a cold like 3-4 times a year.
    But eating healthily (but not sticking to a restrictive diet at all) and doing weight training in the gym, helped me overcome pretty much everything except my heartburn and jock itch.

    Since the end of 2012 and LOADS of antibiotics, my symptoms came roaring back and worse than ever before. I had surgery and haven’t been to the gym. So my immune system got worse, and all my hypothyroid problems came back worse.

    I got better v quickly (June 2013 started the diet), with persistent digestive problems which seem good now but with a few blips, and need to put weight on so I can go to the gym more.

    I’d love to know more ways of improving my immune system, since the gym has done so in the past, but I can’t do too much at this stage.

    Any suggestions? I’d like to experiment with Iodine supplements, but my blood tests came back negative for hypothyroidism (which is wrong, based on everything I have, and the fact they haven’t adequately tested).

    I’m not a doc and am still learning myself, what kind of doctor are you seeing?

    I wouldn’t just start iodine until you are sure you adrenal function is good. The easiest way to check this is to take your temp for at least a few days. You can read more about that here if you are interested: http://www.drrind.com/therapies/metabolic-temperature-graph
    When you supplement the thyroid it will stress your adrenals more. Thyroid tests are notorious for being very generous in their ranges of normal.

    From my understanding once you correct your immune system, leaky gut, and any infections/ SIBO/SIFO you will absorb your food better and not need to eat as much to gain the weight you want. I’m in the same boat as you on that one.

    Have you tested your methylation? Heavy Metal toxicity? Have any fillings/eat a lot of tuna? It really all comes down to finding out why your immune system isn’t working 100% and how to help it. I wish there was one thing everyone could do that would instantly turn it back on, but it’s gonna be different from person to person.

    #116784

    raster
    Participant
    Topics: 104
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    I recommend healing thyroid and adrenals at same time using safe food derived sources such as standard process supplements. I hgihly recommend consulting a naturopath about the best methods to do this.

    -raster

    #116813

    jameskep
    Participant
    Topics: 25
    Replies: 220

    The majority of your immune system is good flora. Most people that cure their candida by fine tuning their immune system are towards the end of their candida program. Most good programs include 1.Downsizing the candida population 2. Restoring/rebalancing the gut flora 3. Restoring immune function/detoxing. You can’t do 3. without first doing 1. If the candida outnumbers our white blood cells 10:1 they don’t stand a chance. Most people that cure their candida by restoring immune function have already accomplished 1. and 2. I also know someone who took antibiotics for a long time and they developed SIBO. I think it depends on the type of antibiotic they are taking and the strength. Some antibiotics might be weaker so the bacteria survives but turns more pathogenic.

    The person I know that has SIBO deals more with food allergies and diarrhea. But he has never been able to restore his gut ecosystem balance. It can become very complicated and difficult to restore the proper balance of the gut ecosystem.

    #116830

    impossible
    Member
    Topics: 16
    Replies: 606

    The body has ways to deal with gut infections other than just taking them on directly with the immune system, which it could still probably do if it was healthy. If your gut is that infected you should have diarrhea coming out of your arse like a fire hydrant, among your body doing other things. If properly equipped and respondent it has the capacity to deal with it and you would be pretty darn sick until it did. Lots of people get diarrhea from antibiotics, its pretty normal for normal people. Most candida sufferers dont experience things like, for lack of an immune response. Every good integrative/naturopathic doctor Ive ever seen considered candida to be a secondary problem to immune malfunction caused by something else.

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