vitamin c dosage/safety

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  • #116763

    lockie86
    Participant
    Topics: 33
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    hi

    i wondered what the general consensus on here is about Vitamin C dosage?

    i’ve seen high doses recommended by people to help with die off, and also my nutritionist recommended taking very high doses to help with constipation too, like taking it to ‘bowel tolerance levels’, which i have been doing on and off for a while.

    my wife got worried about this and checked it out, unearthing some very worrying articles like these:

    the Independent one is an old one (1998), but seems to suggest high doses of Vit C can lead to cancer:

    http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/ate/heartandblood/202760.html
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/too-much-vitamin-c-is-bad-for-you-say-experts-1155256.html

    does anyone have any current information, or thoughts/advice?

    many thanks

    mark
    UK

    #116765

    kjones02
    Participant
    Topics: 79
    Replies: 315

    I don’t really have any advice. I feel I should get vitamin C in me, have all along, but for the many months that I have been fighting candida; it seems that I can’t settle on a good vitamin C supplement. It really gets my intestines rumbling (probably because I have no colon). So, hopefully, someone will chime in on the vitamin C supplement that they take.

    #116768

    lockie86
    Participant
    Topics: 33
    Replies: 76

    Thanks, if anyone knows on the cancer thing that would be helpful. Been taking loads of this stuff for ages and those articles are kinda scary.

    #116769

    Tdog333
    Member
    Topics: 25
    Replies: 245

    I honestly wouldn’t worry about it because I have read so many studies about the efficacy of vitamin C. I’ve read a ton of what you could call miracle vitamin C healings too, ex: people dieing from abx resistant infections who did high dose lipo or IV C and were cured.

    I think you need to alternate your dosage though. I do bowel tolerance twice a week or so, and 2-3 grams on other days. I’ve heard your body can develop ways to break down the C and render it ineffective if you dose to high for too long, so it’s good to alternate it.

    I personally know 2 people who have done 20+ grams a day for 20 years and are in good health.

    The study they mention isn’t even explained well either, who knows how well it was carried out and what other variables took place.

    Vitamin C can sure stir stuff up though and cause herx, so watch out for that. Some people with chronic health issues feel worse after taking very high doses, I think one reason is because of some chronic virus they have that the C starts kicking up and trying to destroy.

    But I should also say, it’s up to your own personal decision, you have to weigh the pro’s and con’s for yourself.

    #116770

    Vegan Catlady
    Member
    Topics: 34
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    I just want to mention that if you research vitamin C long enough, it both causes and cures cancer, just like every other unnatural supplement….in other words, nothing is completely “safe”.

    I didnt find that vitamin C helped even a little bit with die off. Nothing.

    I take vitamin C for other reasons, however, and its been said many times that you use what your body needs…and sometimes your body can tolerate incredible levels just because it needs it.

    I think many problems arise out of giving the body unnatural things that it cannot use.

    High doses of vit C can cause kidney stones in prone people, and high doses of any vitamin can cause a deficiency in another vitamin, the same way taking herbs that act as diuretics can affect vitamin/mineral loss, or eating high protein diets that also act as a diuretic.
    High amounts of vitamin C have to be eventually lowered, and not just stopped, due to an affect on the immune system when it is just “cut-off”.

    I dont mention any of this to worry you, I mention it so that you note that vitamins in pill form are not natural, and therefore will force responsibility on behalf of the user.

    I wouldnt be too concerned unless you are taking a super high amount for a very long time.
    I take Emergen C (1000mg vit C and B complex) once a day when I feel vulnerable to the sickness that the kids bring home from school, and if im not taking that, I take a 500mg vit C daily because this stupid candida doesnt allow me the amount of fruits a day I am accustomed to.

    Its water soluble, but I still be careful. http://www.webmd.com/vitamins-and-supplements/nutrition-vitamins-11/fat-water-nutrient

    #116773

    Tdog333
    Member
    Topics: 25
    Replies: 245

    Vitamin C doesn’t cause kidney stones

    http://www.doctoryourself.com/kidney.html

    http://undergroundhealthreporter.com/prevent-kidney-stones#axzz2vlOlKHHy

    http://www.mindandmuscle.net/articles/myth-busting-vitamin-c-causes-kidney-stones/

    This evidence suggests that supplementing large doses of Vitamin C has no effect on the formation of kidney stones, but rather may be curative of such problems.

    Sorry, but vitamin C causing kidney stones is one myth that drives me nuts cause I hear it all the time

    #116775

    Vegan Catlady
    Member
    Topics: 34
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    Tdog333;55294 wrote: Vitamin C doesn’t cause kidney stones

    http://www.doctoryourself.com/kidney.html

    http://undergroundhealthreporter.com/prevent-kidney-stones#axzz2vlOlKHHy

    http://www.mindandmuscle.net/articles/myth-busting-vitamin-c-causes-kidney-stones/

    This evidence suggests that supplementing large doses of Vitamin C has no effect on the formation of kidney stones, but rather may be curative of such problems.

    Sorry, but vitamin C causing kidney stones is one myth that drives me nuts cause I hear it all the time

    I have read the conflicting info as well (studies, not these funny articles written by well-meaning every-day Joes), but the info depends on the type of vitamin c you take, one being acidifying, one being neutral.

    I used to think the vitamin C I took was all the same too, but its not.

    The point was that people who are already prone to kidney stones (like I posted) may see an increase in them if you acidify a body that prefers to be alkaline.
    http://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/high-dose-vitamin-c-linked-to-kidney-stones-in-men-201302055854

    Those articles were cool, but not written by anyone with credentials?

    And in the people taking super-high vitamin C, what type were they taking?

    Right here, I cannot take any one of these articles seriously:

    “Acidic urine will also dissolve magnesium ammonium phosphate stones, which would otherwise require surgical removal. These are the same struvite stones associated with urinary tract infections. Both the infection and the stone are easily cured with vitamin C in large doses. BOTH are virtually 100% preventable with daily consumption of much-greater-than-RDA amounts of ascorbic acid. Think grams, not milligrams! A gorilla gets about 4,000 mg of vitamin C a day in its natural diet. The US RDA for humans is only 60 mg. Someone is wrong, and I don’t think it’s the gorillas.”

    Sorry,lol, but gorillas are 10X our weight, and are eating a whole-food diet with *natural* vitmin C amounts in them, not to mention in WHOLEFOODS there are other constituents in food that help the body to both absorb and metabolize the vitamins that we so readily take out of the healthy fruit and turn into a pill.

    Gorillas are not popping pills and eating a high-protein diet (more than 10% of total calories), which causes dehydration. In fact, their food choices are actually hydrating!

    Ours are not. Even if you drank 10 glasses of water a day, you would not stay fully hydrated.
    Gorillas dont eat meat anywhere NEAR the amounts we do. If they do that day at ALL.
    Combine dehydration and high doses of vitamin C, and be prone to stones… 😉

    The whole body needs to be taken into consideration when deciding that popping high doses of man-made vitamins are somehow safe and natural because our breakfast orange happens to have vitamin c in it.

    I love this reference, because for the most part it will put you at ease for taking as much vitamin C as you are comfortable with, will remind you that vitamin c is healthful, even in larger amounts, but does caution you that you cannot group everyone in a pile and say its safe for everyone: http://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/VitaminC-HealthProfessional/

    #116779

    lockie86
    Participant
    Topics: 33
    Replies: 76

    Thanks a lot man! Feeling a little better now! Will definitely vary the doses now for sure :-))

    #116781

    Tdog333
    Member
    Topics: 25
    Replies: 245

    No prob man, just remember it’s up to you and your doc to decide what you want to do, I’m just providing information.
    I just wrote a reply catlady but somehow when I hit post it got deleted so I’ll try to remember what I wrote:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10090119

    Serum ascorbic acid levels were not associated with decreased serum vitamin B12 levels (or indicators of vitamin B12 deficiency), prevalence of kidney stones,

    From the pioneers of the Urine Organic Acids Test(GPL)

    A large study of more than 85,000 women found no relation betwen vitamin C intake and kidney stones (27). In addition, an evaluation of 100 children on the autistic spectrum at The Great Plains Laboratory revealed that there was nearly zero correlation between vitamin C and oxalates in the urine (Table 2). Megadoses (more than 100 mg/Kg body weight per day) of vitamin C were shown to markedly reduce autistic symptoms in a double blind placebo controlled study (28) so any restriction of vitamin C needs to be carefully weighed against its significant benefits.

    http://jasn.asnjournals.org/content/10/4/840.abstract here is that study.

    Dr. William McCormack, in the 1940’s, treated kidney stones by giving vitamin C. (1946)

    Simon and Hudes (1999) concluded that a rise of 1.0 mg/deceliter of vitamin C in the blood is associated with a 28% drop in the appearance of kidney stones.

    From Ascorbate: Lies, Myths and Half-truths-

    The origins of this myth are not too obscure, but its persistence is a mystery. There is no conclusive clinical evidence that high intake of ascorbate is firmly linked to oxalate kidney stones or to large increases in urinary oxalate spillage. For most people, there is simply no significant connection: M.P. Lamden & G.A. Chrystowski (Proc Soc Exp Biol Med, 85:1, 190-192, Jan 1954), K. Schmidt et al (Am J Clin Nutr 34:3, 305-311, March 1981), F. Erden et al (Acta Vitamin Enzym 7:1-2, 123-130, 1985) reported either insignificant or very low increases in urinary oxalate after taking ascorbate.

    Also:

    There have been scattered, sparsely-reported anecdotes of unusual stone-formers (e.g. M.H. Briggs et al, Med J Australia 2:1, 48-49, 7 July 1973) whose urinary oxalate increased unusually when taking large amounts of ascorbic acid, and a few other reports of known stone-formers whose urinary oxalate dropped when ascorbate was stopped (e.g. D.A. Roth et al J.A.M.A., 237:8, 768, 21 Feb 1977). But these patients had a history of stones before taking ascorbate, and the studies did not rule out contributions of common dietary sources of oxalate (coffee, tea, beans, spinach, oranges etc.). The tenor of most such studies seems alarmist, apparently aimed at creating panic over the “dangers” of ascorbate.

    From Clinical Guide to the Use of Vitamin C:
    (http://www.seanet.com/~alexs/ascorbate/198x/smith-lh-clinical_guide_1988.htm)

    Lamden found that an ingestion of 9 grams of C/day resulted in oxalate spills of 68 mg. in the urine per 24 hours. Controls without C spilled 64 mg./24 hours. Not a big difference.

    Also:

    He says in all cases a stasis of urine flow “and a concentrated urine appear to be the chief physiological factors.” Oxalic acid precipitates out of solution only from a neutral or alkaline solution—pH 7 to pH 10. Urine pH in those consuming ten grams of Vitamin C daily is about 6. Even in diabetics who take this large amount of C (10 grams), the urinary oxalate excretion remains relatively unchanged. “Vitamin C is an excellent diuretic. No urinary stasis; no urine concentration. The ascorbic acid/kidney stone story is a myth.” One more bon mot: “Methylene will dissolve calcium oxalate stones, if the patient is given 65 mg orally two to three times a day,” he learned from Medical World News (Smith, M.J.V., M.D.: Dec. 4, 1970).
    (90% of all stones are calcium stones. Calcium is soluble in acid media. Vitamin C acidifies the urine. Acid urine discourages the growth of bacteria. Although uric acid stones are theoretically possible with high doses of C and a low urinary pH, none have been reported.)

    From Page 166, Section 7.7.7.2. Is the formation of calcium oxalate calculi a real hazard? :

    …However, Klenner (1971), Poser (1972) and Hoffer (1973) have concluded from their wide experience over many years of prescribing multigram daily doses of ascorbic acid – when they noted no patients who suffered calcium oxalate stone formation – that such hazards are very remote. Also Takiguchi et al. (1966) found no significant increase in urinary oxalate excretion on administration of up to 2 g daily of ascorbic acid for up to 6 months. Murphy and Zelman (1965) also concluded after 3 years of investigation that the hazard of oxalate calcuil form is not significant

    Thus, the basic argument that an increase in oxalate excretion in the urine, resulting from mega intake of vitamin C, is likely to be accompanied by the formation of calcium oxalate stones is not valid; rather the reverse because of the accompanying increased acidity and increase ascorbate concentration in the urine.

    (a) increased acidity: Multigram administration of ascorbic acid is often recommended (McDonald and Murphy, 1959; Murphy and Zelman, 1965) for increased acidity of the urine which effect enhances bacteriostacis. Such acidity is exponentially effective in reducing calcium oxalate precipitation. This precipitation requires that the solubility product of [Ca++][C2C4] be exceeded. Oxalic acid is a dibasic acid, and its ionization takes place in two stages. However for the sake of simplicity we can write

    H2C2O4 == 2 H+ + C2O4—and therefore [C2O4—][H+]2 / [H2C2O4] = K

    Hence, increase in [H+] (the pH usually drops by about 0.5 to 1 pH unites) should have an adverse effect to the second power on the [C2O4—], and correspondingly decreases the probability of calcium oxalate precipitation. Indeed, acid urine is known to solubilze calcium salts thereby reducing the hazard of stone formation (Hockaday and Smith, 1963).

    (b) Diuresis.* Stone formation requires static conditions when the initial minute nuclei, capable of passing through the fairly porous membranes of the kidney tissue, grow to large sizes. Diuresis by increasing urine flow obviates the urolithiasis. Increasingly larger intakes of ascorbic acid are known to result in corresponding increases in diuresis; some physicians recommend as much as 10 g daily as a diuretic (e.g. Klenner, 1971). Increasing diuresis should therefore inhibit correspondingly the probability of stone formation.

    ( c ) Increased ascorbate concentration: This results in increased complexing of the Ca++ thereby decreasing the free Ca++. This decrease the probability of the solubility product of calcium oxalate being exceeded.

    Hence increase ascorbic acid intake, although resulting in some increase in oxalic acid excretion in the urine, is hardly likely to increase the probability of the formation of calcium oxalate calcuil.

    Linus in the book HOW TO LIVE LONGER AND FEEL BETTER (Pauling, 1986) points out the the pH of the urine can determine which type of stones form. They don’t form in neutral urine. The most common stones form in alkaline urine, and ascorbic acid should be taken to help turn the urine more acidic and prevent these stones.

    Futhermore if anyone is worried about stones forming because of an acidic environment(which was shown above to be false) you can take sodium ascorbate instead of ascorbic acid.

    #116782

    Vegan Catlady
    Member
    Topics: 34
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    These were taken from a dentist? Im just asking because it all seems to be taken from the same source, and about oxalates and nothing more.

    This is not just about oxalates,unfortunately.

    Not to mention that you included in one of your copy and pastes that vitamin C is a diuretic, supporting the issue that this is not just about oxalates. Its about how a high dose of synthetic vitamin can put the body in a state of acidosis.

    I will have to return to this later tonight when I can provide links to stones being about more than just oxalates.

    #116783

    raster
    Participant
    Topics: 104
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    I think its generally pretty safe to take a few grams per day but I wouldn’t dose beyond 5 grams of it personally per day. I’d use high quality vitamin C too such as ester C, etc. Get one with bioflavanoids. The cheap vitamin C products are derived from corn which is almost all GMO and isn’t allowed on the diet, so the quality of vitamin C is maybe the most important when compared to all of your other vitamins.

    -raster

    #116786

    Tdog333
    Member
    Topics: 25
    Replies: 245

    Vegan Catlady;55303 wrote: These were taken from a dentist? Im just asking because it all seems to be taken from the same source, and about oxalates and nothing more.

    This is not just about oxalates,unfortunately.

    Not to mention that you included in one of your copy and pastes that vitamin C is a diuretic, supporting the issue that this is not just about oxalates. Its about how a high dose of synthetic vitamin can put the body in a state of acidosis.

    I will have to return to this later tonight when I can provide links to stones being about more than just oxalates.

    Take a look at this page, I think you need a better understanding of what kidney stones are actually made up of…
    http://www.webmd.com/kidney-stones/tc/types-of-kidney-stones-topic-overview

    80% of kidney stones are from calcium oxalate, how are you gonna say that this is not just about oxalates when 80% or kidney stones are made up of it?

    As I quoted above, ascorbic acid will dissolve calcium oxalate.

    The second highest source of kidney stones is from uric acid.

    From webmd:

    Some kidney stones are made of uric acid, a waste product normally passed out of the body in the urine. You are more likely to have uric acid stones if you have:
    Low urine output.
    A diet high in animal protein, such as red meat.
    An increase in how much alcohol you drink.
    Gout.
    Inflammatory bowel disease.
    Certain medicines may prevent or dissolve uric acid stones.

    Note that ascorbic acid being a dieuretic would PREVENT a uric acid type of stone.

    The third type is called a Struvite stone. – These are generally thought to be a effect of UTI’s

    (which ascorbic acid also helps with if you read the quotes i posted)

    The last type is called Cystine stones, obviously from too much cystine in the urine. I will have to look into this type more as this is the only type I haven’t studied as much as I’d like.

    From that we can see that 3/4 of all kidney stones(not to mention the most common types) ARE prevented or helped by ascorbic acid.

    The fact that you said these are all from the same source makes me think you didn’t even read them.

    Sources:
    Great Plains Laboratory
    Simon and Hudes
    Dr. William McCormack
    Lamden
    Klenner (1971), Poser (1972) and Hoffer (1973)
    Takiguchi et al. (1966)
    Murphy and Zelman (1965)
    (McDonald and Murphy, 1959)
    Pauling, 1986

    Those are just the scientific studies, I didn’t post the authors of the books, looks like more than the same source/a dentist to me.

    I agree with you raster that the source is very important, lots of ascorbic acid is from GMO corn like you said, so the source needs to be good.

    #116787

    Vegan Catlady
    Member
    Topics: 34
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    What causes kidney stones?
    The leading cause of kidney stones is a lack of water. Stones commonly have been found in those that drink less than the recommended eight to ten glasses of water a day. When there is not enough water to dilute the uric acid (component of urine), the pH level within the kidneys drops and becomes more acidic. An excessively acidic environment in the kidneys is conducive to the formation of kidney stones.
    Medical conditions such as Crohn’s disease, urinary tract infections, renal tubular acidosis, hyperparathyroidism, medullary sponge kidney, and Dent’s disease have been known to lead to kidney stones. It also has been suggested that water fluoridation – the addition of fluoride to drinking water – is responsible for some cases of kidney stones.
    http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/154193.php

    Web MD had quite a bit on it, in many different articles: http://www.webmd.com/kidney-stones/understanding-kidney-stones-basics

    Mayo Clinic: http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/kidney-stones/basics/causes/con-20024829

    “A high-protein diet may worsen kidney function in people with kidney disease because your body may have trouble eliminating all the waste products of protein metabolism. “
    http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-living/nutrition-and-healthy-eating/expert-answers/high-protein-diets/faq-20058207

    “The chance of getting these side effects increases the more vitamin C you take. Amounts higher than 2000 mg per day are POSSIBLY UNSAFE and may cause a lot of side effects, including kidney stones and severe diarrhea. In people who have had a kidney stone, amounts greater than 1000 mg per day greatly increase the risk of kidney stone recurrence. “
    http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/natural/1001.html

    Now, I can go on and on, with why just watching your oxalates are not enough to avoid stones.

    Because vitamin C has the potential to alter the body’s chemistry in higher than normal amounts, I feel it is irresponsible at best to make a sweeping statement that there is NO connection between vitamin c and kidney stones.

    I really do agree that western medical sites are suspiciously against us taking our health into our own hands.
    I also really agree there is incentive for bending the truth, even straight-out LYING so that we feel fearful and discouraged.

    I take high amounts of vit c, so I would be a hypocrite to tell another not to.

    In the interest of being SAFE to another poster who has not potentially done the research we have done, I feel that we need to be careful with sweeping statements that give people who might have particular medical issues a sense of false security.

    #116788

    Tdog333
    Member
    Topics: 25
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    Well first off I think its obvious that if your taking vitamin C you should be drinking lots of water.

    That first link is just backing up what the studies I posted say, the first line in the article you posted “Kidney stones usually comprised of a compound called calcium oxalate”- we’ve already established from the studies above that ascorbic acid dissolves this.

    High protein diet has nothing to do with vitamin C.

    The nlm.nih gov link you posted doesn’t have any actual studies in it. I think I’ll trust the studies I’ve read instead of a couple statements from the same government that also pushes ineffective flu vaccines and puts fluorine in our water.

    That’s what I’m trying to do- provide the studies that have helped me make a decision. It really is up to each person to decide what they want to do with the studies shown and links provided. If they have certain health problems it is up to themselves and their doctor to determine the best course of action.

    Well I think enough info has been posted here that anyone who views this topic can make a decision for themselves.

    #116789

    Vegan Catlady
    Member
    Topics: 34
    Replies: 626

    Tdog333;55307 wrote:

    The fact that you said these are all from the same source makes me think you didn’t even read them.

    Sources:
    Great Plains Laboratory
    Simon and Hudes
    Dr. William McCormack
    Lamden
    Klenner (1971), Poser (1972) and Hoffer (1973)
    Takiguchi et al. (1966)
    Murphy and Zelman (1965)
    (McDonald and Murphy, 1959)
    Pauling, 1986

    Those are just the scientific studies, I didn’t post the authors of the books, looks like more than the same source/a dentist to me.

    I agree with you raster that the source is very important, lots of ascorbic acid is from GMO corn like you said, so the source needs to be good.

    We definitely trust very different sources of info.

    And no, I only read the first link that mentions that it was from a dentist that was regurgitating another person’s research. I had to leave to bring my son to work.
    But im back 🙂

    I simply posted (HERE IS A QUOTE) “High doses of vit C can cause kidney stones in prone people, and high doses of any vitamin can cause a deficiency in another vitamin, the same way taking herbs that act as diuretics can affect vitamin/mineral loss, or eating high protein diets that also act as a diuretic.
    High amounts of vitamin C have to be eventually lowered, and not just stopped, due to an affect on the immune system when it is just “cut-off”.”

    And then you in defense, IMPLIED I said vitamin C is THE CAUSE OF ALL KIDNEY STONES.

    If my son didnt have them once, I wouldnt know anything about them.
    Since I was forced to educate myself, I did it to the point of including every angle, not just what pills are safe to pop.

    Actually, Great Plains Laboratory has incentive to sell you vitamin C, and antifungals and tests. They are salesmen.

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