The CBS thread

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This topic contains 14 replies, has 6 voices, and was last updated by  Tdog333 5 years, 1 month ago.

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  • #114415

    impossible
    Member
    Topics: 16
    Replies: 606

    Since active cbs mutations are so popular around here, I figured it would be helpful to start a thread where we can explore all the implications of a cbs mutation and its possible effects on yeast/immune function. I’ve started doing some deeper digging and will start posting some links, articles, studies, and ideas.

    I encourage others to join in and help out. There could be something there. After all, we are talking about something that can drain the methylation cycle and pull cysteine away from glutathione production.

    I particularly am interested in supplements that can improve glutathione status and immune function in those with active cbs mutations.

    #114428

    kjones02
    Participant
    Topics: 79
    Replies: 315

    impossible, just wanted to say thank you for all your help! I’ll keep on reporting, but even though I am experimenting, after paying some bills this month and getting things in order, I still want the methylation test I think. I know I have been feeling better doing higher amounts of b6! I know reading that book is going to take me some time. It is long, but it is very interesting; I am liking it.

    #114475

    ThomasJoel2
    Participant
    Topics: 9
    Replies: 375

    Very good thread idea! As someone who has CBS mutations I can attest to the dramatic positive health impact that can happen when you cut out sulfur foods (if you have a CBS mutation).

    I think one of the big things to realize is the fact that so many of the foods promoted by candida diets are also very high sulfur. Antifungals like brussels sprouts, garlic, and onion are all high sulfur. Other foods common to candida diets like eggs, kale, broccoli, cabbage, cauliflower, and buckwheat are also high sulfur. If you have extensive negative reactions to these foods it may be because of the high sulfur content and not because of their antifungal properties.

    #114490

    kjones02
    Participant
    Topics: 79
    Replies: 315

    ThomasJoel2;52996 wrote: Very good thread idea! As someone who has CBS mutations I can attest to the dramatic positive health impact that can happen when you cut out sulfur foods (if you have a CBS mutation).

    I think one of the big things to realize is the fact that so many of the foods promoted by candida diets are also very high sulfur. Antifungals like brussels sprouts, garlic, and onion are all high sulfur. Other foods common to candida diets like eggs, kale, broccoli, cabbage, cauliflower, and buckwheat are also high sulfur. If you have extensive negative reactions to these foods it may be because of the high sulfur content and not because of their antifungal properties.

    Interesting, I don’t know my results as I haven’t been tested yet, but I know that I don’t tolerate brussel sprouts or cauliflower at all. I did cut out eggs to every once in awhile (eat occasionally), or just eat the whites, even cut it out of the breads I made. I kept trying to go back to buckwheat, but it makes me feel bad and bloated. Actually, I tolerate quinoa, and then I love millet. Maybe I can get away with some broccoli, and kale is sort of that iffy one.

    I always seem to stick to zucchini, cucumbers, radishes, celery, lettuce, haven’t had spinach again in awhile – not sure yet, and I know it’s not on the diet (I don’t think), but I can do spaghetti squash here and there if feeling okay – makes a good substitute for pasta.

    I have put small amounts of garlic or onion in my recipes, like soup just for some flavoring, but yes, I can’t overdo those! Otherwise, just putting onion or garlic powder is just fine. One time, I overdid onions in a salad I made, I think I had the worst reaction ever!!!!! Die-off, or something! I’ll never do that again!!!!

    #114506

    Deep1111
    Member
    Topics: 14
    Replies: 29

    I have CBS mutations. I know sulfur foods gives me problem. Do I have to eliminate sulfur food for the rest of my life? Can I eat some of sulfur food and feel good? I thought that molybdenum and tumeric help to reduce intolerance of sulfur foods.

    #114508

    blueocean
    Member
    Topics: 1
    Replies: 17

    I have cbs hetero mutations and I cannot take sulfur based anti-biotics without breaking out in a bright red sunburn rash all over my body – hence I’m allergic.

    However, I was recently reading here and they were saying that the CBS gene isn’t responsible for sulfur issues – what is your take on this Impossible?

    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/treating-cbs-mutation.24968/

    #114528

    Deep1111
    Member
    Topics: 14
    Replies: 29

    I recently found out that I have histamine food intolerance. Anyone has this issue and share with me how to alleviate histamine food intolerance.

    #114625

    impossible
    Member
    Topics: 16
    Replies: 606

    blueocean;53029 wrote: I have cbs hetero mutations and I cannot take sulfur based anti-biotics without breaking out in a bright red sunburn rash all over my body – hence I’m allergic.

    However, I was recently reading here and they were saying that the CBS gene isn’t responsible for sulfur issues – what is your take on this Impossible?

    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/treating-cbs-mutation.24968/

    An allergy is different than an intolerance.

    It seems like valentijn will read a study that goes against the grain and hang on it. Studies wont all correlate, thats common, especially on subjects as “murky”, complicated, and convoluted as this particular subject is. From what i’ve seen and according to the couple of specialists i’ve talked to, and all the material i’ve read, the majority of people with 699 mutations benefit from a sulfur free diet and moly & yucca while the majority of people that are cbs mutation free do not. There are many other variables that can influence the outcome, including expression of the gene itself. The jury is still out on the 360.

    I personally have no 699 mut’s and am homozygous 360 and will test around 800 if I eat alot of sulfur foods (with some brain fog) and 200 if I dont.

    #114626

    impossible
    Member
    Topics: 16
    Replies: 606

    Deep1111;53049 wrote: I recently found out that I have histamine food intolerance. Anyone has this issue and share with me how to alleviate histamine food intolerance.

    I dont know alot about it other than its typically caused by low levels of HNMT and/or DAO enzymes, which I guess could have multiple causes. Haveyou had your histamine level checked?

    #114627

    impossible
    Member
    Topics: 16
    Replies: 606

    FYI, I was just reading yesterday that b5 can speed up cbs. It was in a thread on PR that I cant find now.

    #116577

    ThomasJoel2
    Participant
    Topics: 9
    Replies: 375

    impossible, what do you think of epsom salt baths for those with a CBS mutation?

    #116579

    impossible
    Member
    Topics: 16
    Replies: 606

    Alot of sulfate, I dont recommend it. I am curious about this though. If you try it, let me know what happens.

    #116663

    Tdog333
    Member
    Topics: 25
    Replies: 245

    Interesting post I found on the CBS mutation, not sure if you guys have read this yet:

    RichVank,

    “Hydrogen sulfide (H2S) has been getting more attention lately in connection with CFS.”

    “As I think many of you know, the methylation cycle and glutathione are both parts of the overall sulfur metabolism in the body, as is the production of H2S.”

    “The various reactions that can produce H2S in the body include parts of the
    human metabolism, and also the metabolism of certain bacteria in the gut.”

    “The first place I heard about H2S in connection with CFS was from Dr. Amy Yasko, who emphasizes that people who have genetic polymorphisms in their cystathionine beta synthase (CBS) enzyme, along with a methylation cycle block, will tend to generate more H2S.”

    “I also heard about sulfur-related topics from Susan Owens, who runs the Yahoo sulfurstories group and the group about trouble with Epsom salts. On the latter topic, I have speculated that people who don’t tolerate Epsom salts well may have sulfate-reducing bacteria (SRBs) in their gut, which convert sulfate to hydrogen sulfide. SRBs have been found in the gut in some people. As far as I know, the human metabolism does not have a pathway for chemically reducing sulfate, so I think the bacteria must be responsible for converting the sulfate to more chemically reduced species, such as H2S and eventually sulfite, and thus producing the sulfate intolerance in these people. Sulfate is the main form of sulfur normally excreted in the urine.”

    “In the human metabolism, the two enzymes of the transsulfuration pathway, i.e. cystathionine beta synthase (CBS) and cystathionine gamma lyase (CGL), akacystathionase, are capable of producing H2S from cysteine or homocysteine.”

    “In my 2008 revision of the Glutathione Depletion–Methylation Cycle Block hypothesis, described in the set of PowerPoint slides in the files section of the cfs-yasko group’s website, I proposed that cysteine becomes oxidized to cystine inthe oxidative stress condition present in CFS, and that CGL then catalyzes a pathway starting with cystine that produces hydrogen sulfide and thiosulfate. I based this on research summarized by Martha Stipanuk, who has worked a lot in this area with rats.”

    “I just heard a few days ago from Prof. Ruma Banerjee, who is probably the leading researcher in the area involving the human sulfur metabolism and vitamin B12, that the human version of CGL does not use cystine as a substrate under normal conditions, which the rat version does. I’m not sure yet whether it would do so under oxidizing conditions, so this aspect of my hypothesis is stilla little “up in the air” at this point. It is clear from our clinical study (alsoin the files section of the cfs-yasko website) that the methylation cycle block in CFS is linked to glutathione depletion, so there has to be away to explain where the sulfur metabolites that are dumped down the transsulfuration pathway when there is a methylation cycle block actually go, since they don’t go into making more glutathione. This aspect needs more research.”

    “Marian Lemle has proposed that hydrogen sulfide is involved in CFS. I had the privilege of meeting her at the Reno conference in March, where we both presented poster papers. She is also a friend of Prof. Dick Deth, who works primarily on autism, and who is very knowledgeable about the sulfur metabolism. Marian got her paper published in the journal Medical Hypotheses, and she also presented her hypothesis to the federal CFS Advisory Committee last October. Marian didn’t get into the biochemistry of how H2S is produced (she is a science writer, not a scientist per se), but she noted that the symptoms of H2S poisoning are similar to those of CFS, and that was the basis for her hypothesis that H2S is involved in CFS. I thought this was interesting work, and I have interacted with her concerning how her work and mine might be connected.”

    “Dr. de Meirleir and his group have found that hydrogen sulfide is elevated in the urine in the most severely ill M.E. patients, and his company is now offering a qualitative urine test for H2S. His view seems to be that the H2S is being produced by bacteria in the gut in the severely ill patients, and I think he is probably right about that.”

    “I think that we will eventually be able to tie all of this together, but it will take some careful lab work to nail it down.”

    “Here are some speculations about what goes on: First, the sulfur in the human body originates in the diet (and supplements, if they are used). It comes in assulfur-containing amino acids (methionine, cysteine, cystine, and taurine), and also in the form of sulfate and a few other sulfur-containing species. The sulfur in whatever amount of H2S is produced, by either the human metabolism or the bacteria in the gut, must originate in the diet (and supplements) People who bathe in Epsom salts will absorb some sulfate through their skin.”

    “In a normal, healthy person, a lot of the sulfur-containing substances are digested in the gut and are absorbed into the blood, while some remain in the gut. Also, some are transported into the gut via the bile, from the liver.”

    “Bacteria in the gut therefore have access to some of it, and I think we are all familiar with the rotten egg smell that can be associated with flatus, which comes from hydrogen sulfide. So it is not unusual for bacteria in the gut to be producing hydrogen sulfide.”

    “It is quite common in CFS that there is dysfunction in the digestive system.This can include low stomach acid, slow gastric motility, insufficient secretion of pancreatic enzymes, insufficient secretion of bile, gluten or casein sensitivity,fructose or lactose intolerance, candidiasis, dysbiotic bacteria, intestinal permeability (leaky gut), a variety of other food sensitivities, secretory IgA deficiency, protozoal or helminthic parasites, and others.”

    “Under these circumstances, I think it is quite likely that less of the sulfur containing substances will be absorbed into the blood, and more will be metabolized by bacteria in the gut. The results would likely be less methionine available for the body’s use (including for the methylation cycle), and more hydrogen sulfide produced by bacteria in the gut, which can be absorbed into the blood, have toxic effects on the cells of the body, and be excreted in the urine.”

    “As I noted in a recent post, some of the people who have not responded to the simplfied treatment approach for lifting the methylation cycle block appear to be low in methionine. If there is not enough methionine available, the methylation cycle will operate slowly, even if the partial block has been lifted, because there is not enough “cargo” to be carried around this cycle or to feed the transsulfuration pathway.”

    “I think this fits in well with what Dr. de Meirleir has reported. If sulfur-containing substances aren’t being absorbed into the body, they would be available to feed the bacteria in the gut.”

    “I’ve also noted that in some of the most severely ill PWCs, the condition of the gut is so dysfunctional that they are not able to derive much nutrition from their food. Again, I think this is consistent.”

    “So what does this mean for treatment? I think it means that if a person is relatively well, the simplified treatment approach is likely to work. If their methionine is low, they may also need to supplement it, or to increase their protein intake in general, perhaps together with betaine HCl to augment stomach acid and digestive enzymes to help break down the protein in the gut, so that the amino acids can be absorbed.”

    “If a person is severely ill, so that the digestive system is no longer able to deliver much nutrition to their body, then I think it is likely that the hydrogen sulfide level in their urine will be elevated, as Dr. de Meirleir has reported, because the absorption of the sulfur-containing substances will be lowered. In these cases, it seems reasonable to suspect that many of the serious symptoms that are experienced are effects of hydrogen sulfide. Also in these cases, there may need to be intravenous feeding until the gut is in better condition, and the simplified treatment approach may not help until the gut is
    in condition to absorb nutrients, and the methionine level is high enough that the methylation cycle is being fed with it.”

    “So how do we know where to draw the line between cases in which the simplified treatment will work, and cases that will require additional efforts? I think that measuring the methionine level in a urine amino acids test is one thing that can be done, and perhaps the H2S test being offered by Dr. de Meirleir’s company would be another way to gauge this. This is all very new, so we don’t have experience to go on yet, but I do think all of this will fit together.”

    Best regards,

    Rich

    #116709

    ThomasJoel2
    Participant
    Topics: 9
    Replies: 375

    My N.D. wrote down a link to this website many months ago before I had even heard of methylation. Just sifted through it a bit tonight, but it seems like a great resource. It looks like it does a pretty good job at breaking down methylation in general. Thought it may be helpful.

    http://www.heartfixer.com/AMRI-Outcomes-Non-CV-Autism-Methyl%20Cycle.htm

    The CBS section is pretty informative:

    Function: Converts Homocysteine into Cystathione – The Trans-Sulfuration Pathway

    Findings: Low fasting and post-Methionine loading Homocysteine levels.
    Sensitivity to sulfur products and sulfa containing antibiotics and drugs.
    Elevated ammonia if the remaining enzymes of the Methyl cycle are intact.

    Problem: Up to 10-fold up regulation, generating sulfur breakdown products, depleting glutathione, and generating Ammonia, leading to “brain fog” and stressing the Urea cycle such that BH4 levels fall, leading to a decrease in serotonin and dopamine production. Sulfur activates the stress/cortisol/adrenaline response, creating chronic “fight or flight”. G6PDH may be affected, leading to abnormalities in sugar control. Excess Alpha-Keto-Glutarate can lead to excitotoxin activity, especially if Aluminum and Mercury are present. Methylation intermediates will “fall through this drain”, so the entire system suffers; our defense against viral invasion and toxicity suffers. Co-Q10 and Carnitine generation will fall off due to impaired Methylation, and ATP levels fall, and in this case, more Alpha-Keto-Glutarate will be generated and converted into hydrogen sulfide, also contributing to “brain fog”. The Ammonia detoxifying Urea cycle is strained, more BH4 is used up to neutralize ammonia. Without adequate BH4 NOS (Nitric Oxide Synthase) generates Superoxide instead of Nitric Oxide, compromising cardiovascular function.

    Treatment: 1. Avoidance (strict in homozygotes) of dietary sulfur, sulfite and sulfate. Avoid vegetables rich in sulfur such as garlic, onions, eggs, broccoli, and other cruciferous vegetables. Drugs and supplements containing Sulfur should be avoided (Glutathione, N-Acetyl Cysteine, Taurine, DMSA, DMPS) until the body’s sulfur pool has been reduced to normal (when the test strips turn pink). Avoid animal protein (anything with eyes). In heterozygotes (+/-) treat other Methyl cycle abnormalities with caution until the sulfur pool has been depleted back in to a physiologic range (otherwise the methyl cycle intermediates supplemented will be drained down the CBS pathway to create additional sulfur breakdown products); be even more deliberate with homozygotes (-/-). COMT +/+ and or VDR -/- individuals will have higher dopamine and BH4 levels, may be less ill, but will be more sensitive to methyl cycle intermediates, which could increase dopamine too much, causing irritability/manic behavior.
    2. To reduce/neutralize Ammonia, Dr. Yasko recommends Ammonia Support RNA ½ dropper with meals and with methyl cycle supplements, along with a charcoal supplement (or bentonite) at bedtime (away form other supplements; magnesium citrate may be used as needed to keep the GI tract moving as charcoal may lead to constipation). Yucca, beginning at ½ capsule/day may help with ammonia detoxification. SAMe, carnitine, and methionine help neutralize ammonia (but their levels will be difficult to maintain as they will be drained down the up regulated CBS pathway).
    3. Supplement with Molybdenum to stimulate SUOX (can measure Molybdenum in a RBC or urine mineral test); high doses may be necessary. Homogenized dairy products contain Xanthine Oxidase, which further depletes Molybdenum, and should be avoided if Molybdenum levels are low.
    4. GABA may help neutralize excitotoxin activity on the basis of excessive Alpha-Keto-Glutarate.
    5. BH4 can be given after the sulfur pool is reduced.
    6. Dr. Yasko also recommends Health foundation, Stress foundation, and Nerve Calm RNA preparations to all patients with Autism and methyl cycle defects.
    7. We need B6 for many activities but B6 drives the CBS enzyme; therefore supplement with the P5P form of B6 as opposed to B6 if possible.

    Monitoring: Urine sulfate test strips – Yellow reflects high sulfate, light red low sulfate
    Monitoring: Urine amino acid profile – Allows quantification of ammonia and sulfur containing amino acids. A 24 hour urine collection is best, but if not possible a first morning specimen will work. If urine collection is not possible, then a plasma amino acid determination can be utilized.

    Modifier: SUOX – Sulfite Oxidase – If abnormal (-/-) will have trouble converting the Sulfate generated into Sulfite.
    Modifier: BHMT-2, 4, & 8, when abnormal act as if CBS is up regulated
    Modifier: The A1298C mutation of MTHFR will further deplete BH4

    #116720

    Tdog333
    Member
    Topics: 25
    Replies: 245

    Haha thats funny, I just stumbled upon that website last night and have been reading it, some good stuff

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