Rotating Antifungals !! Why we SHOULDN'T do it.

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This topic contains 17 replies, has 12 voices, and was last updated by  yuluyele 4 years, 4 months ago.

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  • #86757

    dvjorge
    Participant
    Topics: 283
    Replies: 1368

    Hi all,
    This is a topic I brought to this forum since I began to post here some months ago. I have seen how this consideration hasn’t been a real concern for many people.

    I am bringing it again since there are new people posting and reading in this forum every day. I will give you and explanation and a mycology test report sample.

    Antibiotics has been used successfully by medicine in a rotation mode. There are some important differences between antibiotics and antifungals that allows the first to be used in this way. Most antibiotics are broad spectrum bactericidal, meaning they KILL bacteria. Bacteria are a lot more sensitive than fungus to the antimicrobial agents. MDs rotate antibiotics with a sensitivity test result on hand but never randomly .

    Unlikely to the antibiotics, most antifungals are FUNGISTATIC, meaning they don’t kill the fungus but inhibit its growth. Fungus are also resistant by nature. These are disadvantage of the antifungals compared to the antibiotics. MDs don’t rotate antifungals treating resistant yeast infection but increase the dosage to maximum tolerable levels and combine antifungals. They may use 2 or more synergistic antifungal agents at the same time.

    Scientists have proved that microbes mutate at a rate of around 1 in a million without to be exposed to antimicrobial agents. This means that there always be some change in their DNA that favor resistance, you can not avoid it. Usually, these mutants are killed with a high enough dose of one effective antimicrobial. Mutation in microbes can not be prevented.

    Why you shouldn’t rotate the antifungals ??

    I am going to present the typical case of a candida sufferer who is seeking for help in the web. That person is advised to go to the natural pharmacy and buy GSE, Oregano Oil, Caprylic Acid, Olive Leaf Extract, or any other.

    Here is the problem, we don’t know if the yeast strain that is affecting us is sensitive to oregano oil, Sf-722, or what we get in the pharmacy. Then, we go home and begin the treatment thinking about rotation. If we are lucky, we start with one that is effective to the yeast strain is affecting us, the weaker candida cells begin to die and the cycle continue. But, how we were advised to rotate the antifungals, we stop it, and begin the next antifungal in the rotation. If this time, we weren’t lucky and got one that doesn’t offer any activity against the fungus is infecting us, (this is a gambling game) we are in troubles.
    What is going to happen ??
    The inhibition activity stops because the 2 natural antifungal we chose isn’t effective, then, the SURVIVORS, the stronger ones that weren’t killed during the first round, begin to multiply and recover. They are now stronger than before and harder to kill even with the effective substance.
    Doing it without a susceptibility test on hand is a crazy idea and really promotes resistance to multiples antifungals. At the end, we will be left with a yeast infection resistant to multiples antifungal agents.

    I have read many medical articles linked to candida and antifungal drugs. I haven’t found only one where antifungal rotation be documented as a technic to avoid resistance strains. Pulsing, combining, and increasing the dosage es what is used against acquired resistance.

    I don’t know where the information of rotating antifungal is coming from in the web.

    I am giving you a MYCOLOGY SAMPLE REPORT TEST from METAMETRIX, the most technological advanced LAB in US.

    Go to the sensitivity chapter and look how the sensitivity varies between natural and Rx antifungals. This allow you to know no ALL natural and Rx antifungals have activity against all fungal species and strains.

    Since no everyone has access to a sensitivity specialized test, what I find more logic is to STICK with the antifungal you notice you are progressing. Don’t stop it. Then add another more, and look for more progress, if not, stop it and add another until you see that they are working and you getting better.

    I hope this help you to make good decisions.

    Jorge.

    http://www.metametrix.com/files/test-menu/sample-reports/GI-Effects-Mycology-SR.pdf

    Read the right side notes.

    #86758

    raster
    Participant
    Topics: 104
    Replies: 6838

    Thank you for putting this together. I feel that this is a warning to whoever takes those multi-antifungal products which contain 5+ types of antifungals.

    I used to blindly tell people to rotate, but what I meant is to rotate between the same antifungals you used in your treatment. For instance, if you started caprylic acid…then moved on to GSE and oregano oil…later on you should go back to caprylic acid, and then back to GSE and oregano oil later.

    Antifungals you should not rotate include SF722 and coconut oil because they are effective no matter when you take it during your treatment. Natural antifungals are also not worth worrying about; they are found in herbs, spices, vegeatables, etc.

    -raster

    #86771

    Able900
    Spectator
    Topics: 92
    Replies: 4811

    My personal experience:

    By rotating the antifungals, I discovered which ones caused the worse die-off experience. The oil of oregano and virgin coconut oil were by far the worse for me; therefore, after the rotation was completed I went directly back to the oil of oregano and coconut oil. I discovered that when rotating these, the die-off would return with full force making me ill for up to 24 hours each time I restarted either of the two. The same thing happened each time I tried to eat rutabaga. My conclusion was that I should concentrate on these three antifungals. Eventually I continued coconut oil on a daily basis and used the oil of oregano at two-week intervals and eating rutabaga occasionally.

    Obviously, something worked for me; I can say for certainty that these antifungals did not hinder my progress in any way, and considering the intense die-off symptoms that continued to return for a long period of time with these, I can only conclude that they were destroying the Candida.

    Able

    #86783

    flailingWcandi
    Member
    Topics: 13
    Replies: 277

    Good post, dvjorge

    Thank you.

    Your additional voice is an immense help for so many people. It helps bring further clarity to issues which Able/Raster have addressed and seemingly get lots of after the fact questions once someone is in trouble. Thank you for the additional insight about how you arrived at which AF’s worked for you, Able.

    My suggestion is to make a PLAN before starting treatment. Seek, research, read, print out all the various pages of protocol and posts such as this one, look for tips like Able’s here, secure ALL the needed items before hand, compare and contrast the various pages to understand how they overlap and do not under estimate the power of prayer among other things.

    Remember, with most major illness there is a period between dx and treatment. During this period a patient gradually accepts their condition, can research their treatment/operation, make adjustments prior to treatment to help ease convalescence/recovery and probably most important of all: prepare for the financial outlay. This doesn’t seem to be in the collective consciousness with Candida OG (not just this forum/site but, in general). CRC is not an inexpensive illness to treat; best to be upfront about it. Let’s face it, we all have lost lots of money along our CRC journey with various products. Not to mention perhaps a long string of MD/specialists on mis-dxs well before even hearing the word Candida.

    One other suggestion: since all the components add up very quickly it might be advisable to delay initial treatment and to gradually gather items as one can afford within budget; antifungals included. Once secured, then start treatment with a plan. It is too easy to start treatment, get in trouble and have to secure yet another item after another item to get out of trouble yet, causing a lot of added stress which only can be elevated with yet more additional items. Things add up quickly.

    Anyway, just my two cents which aren’t worth two pennies. Thank you all for sharing your expertise and helping us all out. God bless you all.

    #86807

    dvjorge
    Participant
    Topics: 283
    Replies: 1368

    flailingWcandi wrote: Good post, dvjorge

    Thank you.

    Your additional voice is an immense help for so many people. It helps bring further clarity to issues which Able/Raster have addressed and seemingly get lots of after the fact questions once someone is in trouble. Thank you for the additional insight about how you arrived at which AF’s worked for you, Able.

    My suggestion is to make a PLAN before starting treatment. Seek, research, read, print out all the various pages of protocol and posts such as this one, look for tips like Able’s here, secure ALL the needed items before hand, compare and contrast the various pages to understand how they overlap and do not under estimate the power of prayer among other things.

    Remember, with most major illness there is a period between dx and treatment. During this period a patient gradually accepts their condition, can research their treatment/operation, make adjustments prior to treatment to help ease convalescence/recovery and probably most important of all: prepare for the financial outlay. This doesn’t seem to be in the collective consciousness with Candida OG (not just this forum/site but, in general). CRC is not an inexpensive illness to treat; best to be upfront about it. Let’s face it, we all have lost lots of money along our CRC journey with various products. Not to mention perhaps a long string of MD/specialists on mis-dxs well before even hearing the word Candida.

    One other suggestion: since all the components add up very quickly it might be advisable to delay initial treatment and to gradually gather items as one can afford within budget; antifungals included. Once secured, then start treatment with a plan. It is too easy to start treatment, get in trouble and have to secure yet another item after another item to get out of trouble yet, causing a lot of added stress which only can be elevated with yet more additional items. Things add up quickly.

    Anyway, just my two cents which aren’t worth two pennies. Thank you all for sharing your expertise and helping us all out. God bless you all.

    Thank you so much.
    I am doing an effort to write my knowledge and experiences that may be left in the forum to the service of those seeking for help.
    Be assured that I will empty my brain in my posts before I quit posting in the forums, something that I may do one day. Until it won’t happen, I can not keep inside of me the information that has helped me to reach the point where I am today because I know there are many people needing it.
    As I have said before, I have paid a high price after contracting this syndrome. It was a gift MDs gave me prescribing excessive antibiotics. I paid with my marriage, my job, isolation, suffering, misery, and pain, not to say anything about money. I want other cost be less than my.
    My greatest motivation posting is based on the sufferers, web myths, and the amount of suffering I may avoid offering the knowledge I have acquired.
    As a sufferer of a very serious candida case, I have had the opportunity of testing many treatments myself.

    Keep your battle and fill your brain of trusted information to face this syndrome.

    God Bless you too,

    Jorge.

    #108623

    DaughterNature
    Member
    Topics: 20
    Replies: 82

    Able and other experts,

    I am on my 9th day of biotin and only took thyme essential oil for 4 days. I will start the SF722 on August 8th. Do you think that even though I’m not taking any other anti-fungals (oregano oil, thyme oil) during this stage I will still be able to kill off a lot of the Candida? Of course, I am also taking daily regimens such as coconut oil, Brussels sprouts, and rutabaga.

    Thank you.

    #108628

    dvjorge
    Participant
    Topics: 283
    Replies: 1368

    DaughterNature;47144 wrote: Able and other experts,

    I am on my 9th day of biotin and only took thyme essential oil for 4 days. I will start the SF722 on August 8th. Do you think that even though I’m not taking any other anti-fungals (oregano oil, thyme oil) during this stage I will still be able to kill off a lot of the Candida? Of course, I am also taking daily regimens such as coconut oil, Brussels sprouts, and rutabaga.

    Thank you.

    Biotin ??

    If I were you, I wont take biotin. The web is full of myths and invents about what is good or bad to treat this syndrome. Biotin is vital for candida to growth a developed cell. There are websites telling that Biotin impedes candida albicans morphogenesis, but I would like to see one study mentioning it. I have accumulated more than 300 medical papers about candida during the last 5 years but never have read one confirming the role of Biotin stopping the morphogenesis. If you have one study, post it, please. I can not find information about it. However, I have read several papers staying how candida cells need biotin to growth.

    Jorge.

    #108636

    DaughterNature
    Member
    Topics: 20
    Replies: 82

    Hi Jorge,

    I appreciate your quick response. Can you post some of your findings for me? I remember one post on this forum in which two pictures were displayed: one showing the candida cells “healthy” in what I believe was their fungal state while the other had clear differences. I obviously did not do research on this topic. Rather, I have trusted several people here who have cured themselves. Did you follow this strict diet while curing your infestation? How long did it take you to cure yourself? Lastly, what supplements and foods do you recommend?

    Thanks again!

    #108643

    dvjorge
    Participant
    Topics: 283
    Replies: 1368

    DaughterNature;47157 wrote: Hi Jorge,

    I appreciate your quick response. Can you post some of your findings for me? I remember one post on this forum in which two pictures were displayed: one showing the candida cells “healthy” in what I believe was their fungal state while the other had clear differences. I obviously did not do research on this topic. Rather, I have trusted several people here who have cured themselves. Did you follow this strict diet while curing your infestation? How long did it take you to cure yourself? Lastly, what supplements and foods do you recommend?

    Thanks again!

    I have not followed the protocol these guys advice here, but I believe is a good one to begin. No everybody responds in the same way neither have the same case. I have battled a severe case and used more aggressive approaches. In addition to it, I have been researching this topic for more than 5 years.

    Jorge.

    #114948

    Jo-Marie
    Member
    Topics: 4
    Replies: 5

    Able900;25164 wrote: My personal experience:

    By rotating the antifungals, I discovered which ones caused the worse die-off experience. The oil of oregano and virgin coconut oil were by far the worse for me; therefore, after the rotation was completed I went directly back to the oil of oregano and coconut oil. I discovered that when rotating these, the die-off would return with full force making me ill for up to 24 hours each time I restarted either of the two. The same thing happened each time I tried to eat rutabaga. My conclusion was that I should concentrate on these three antifungals. Eventually I continued coconut oil on a daily basis and used the oil of oregano at two-week intervals and eating rutabaga occasionally.

    Obviously, something worked for me; I can say for certainty that these antifungals did not hinder my progress in any way, and considering the intense die-off symptoms that continued to return for a long period of time with these, I can only conclude that they were destroying the Candida.

    Able

    #119489

    ravingmad
    Member
    Topics: 0
    Replies: 3

    This article says something about added biotin affecting candida ability to bind – http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11932452

    #119504

    joe
    Member
    Topics: 0
    Replies: 18

    There seems to be some confusion and some contradiction on this topic. I read and followed Lisa Richards plan on taking anti fungals and just as important as WHAT you take, is WHEN you take them in the course of your treatment. Too early in the beginning can cause to much die off. To close to the probiotics can also cause issues.
    I understand the “carper bomb” approach because it works.
    Take as many different varieties as you can at low dose and ramp it up accordingly going forward.
    There are over 20 different effective, easy to find anti fungals you can take. Many are used together in liquid form and inexpensive. In my case I started just like Lisa directed in the guide and from the time I started the anti fungal phase of the plan continued to take about 15 different forms of anti fungals together an hour or more after the strong probiotic supplements. I’m on day 72 and haven’t experienced a die-off since around day 20 and have been able to sneak in a few foods that where previously off the menu with out issue. I hope this helps clear the confusion and I’m not sure where “rotating” your anti fungals started but it isnt part of the recommended candida diet on this site.

    #119505

    raster
    Participant
    Topics: 104
    Replies: 6838

    joe;58025 wrote: There seems to be some confusion and some contradiction on this topic. I read and followed Lisa Richards plan on taking anti fungals and just as important as WHAT you take, is WHEN you take them in the course of your treatment. Too early in the beginning can cause to much die off. To close to the probiotics can also cause issues.
    I understand the “carper bomb” approach because it works.
    Take as many different varieties as you can at low dose and ramp it up accordingly going forward.
    There are over 20 different effective, easy to find anti fungals you can take. Many are used together in liquid form and inexpensive. In my case I started just like Lisa directed in the guide and from the time I started the anti fungal phase of the plan continued to take about 15 different forms of anti fungals together an hour or more after the strong probiotic supplements. I’m on day 72 and haven’t experienced a die-off since around day 20 and have been able to sneak in a few foods that where previously off the menu with out issue. I hope this helps clear the confusion and I’m not sure where “rotating” your anti fungals started but it isnt part of the recommended candida diet on this site.

    The thing is not everyone here follows the lisa richards plan…

    -raster

    #119518

    AngelaL
    Participant
    Topics: 15
    Replies: 55

    joe;58025 wrote: There seems to be some confusion and some contradiction on this topic. I read and followed Lisa Richards plan on taking anti fungals and just as important as WHAT you take, is WHEN you take them in the course of your treatment. Too early in the beginning can cause to much die off. To close to the probiotics can also cause issues.
    I understand the “carper bomb” approach because it works.
    Take as many different varieties as you can at low dose and ramp it up accordingly going forward.
    There are over 20 different effective, easy to find anti fungals you can take. Many are used together in liquid form and inexpensive. In my case I started just like Lisa directed in the guide and from the time I started the anti fungal phase of the plan continued to take about 15 different forms of anti fungals together an hour or more after the strong probiotic supplements. I’m on day 72 and haven’t experienced a die-off since around day 20 and have been able to sneak in a few foods that where previously off the menu with out issue. I hope this helps clear the confusion and I’m not sure where “rotating” your anti fungals started but it isnt part of the recommended candida diet on this site.

    Thanks Joe. I must confess I’m getting a little confused – clearly some people here are following different plans and mean different things when they refer to ‘Stage 1’ and ‘Stage 2’. Personally, having paid out good money for the LR ebooks to say nothing of the cost of shipping food supplements from the states so I intend to stick to it as closely as possible. I’m on day 48 and so far (touch wood) I have only experienced one day of very mild die-off and my brain fog is starting to clear so clearly something is working for me. Much as I appreciate the effort that people put into researching this condition, at the moment I am trying to stay focused, rather than being side tracked so I try to avoid reading too much about the condition here or elsewhere. I have a demanding job and all I can do is try to stick to the LR rules and get by as well as I can.

    #120781

    surfside949
    Member
    Topics: 5
    Replies: 16

    Hey there~

    THANK YOU for putting this post together… I read the same information and makes sense! After two weeks, I added Digestive Enzymes and wish I would have started with them and feel I lost two weeks of time. I agree with your post and personally, I am only using the most aggressive, proven elements in my regiment. My goal: to find balance and common sense throughout this treatment. Most especially when considering, the financial investment required & lifestyle changes… I wanted to forward & attach some information that I posted on another topic and hope it’s helpful… UNDERSTANDING WHEN, HOW & USAGE IS ESSENTIAL FOR SUCCESS!!! If interested, read on: 🙂

    ATTACHMENT:
    The war on Candida is an overall extreme make-over of the body. In order to be effective, it is essential to use each product appropriately or it’s just a waste of time and money. For example; to achieve optimum results and benefits from a probiotic, it should be taken on an empty stomach and with nothing else. Anti-fungals interfere with their job and accordingly, in order for anti-fungals to work, you need to be taking a digestive enzyme. After all, our bodies played host to the “perfect storm” and provided the ideal setting for yeast overgrowth. Due to it’s mutation and ability to change, we have to go on the offensive and hit it on all fronts.

    Based on documented research, in order to achieve a BALANCED EFFECTIVE herbal regiment, it should include first and foremost: DIGESTIVE ENZYMES. As well as… ANTI-FUNGALS, DETOX CLEANSERS FOR THE LIVER, PROBIOTICS and IMMUNE BOOSTERS. They all serve a specific purpose and when used correctly, they will combat the yeast by breaking down the cell walls and degrading its compounds. As you may have heard, the anti-fungals need to be rotated about every 10 days and it is also just as imperative, the “digestive enzymes” you purchase are the ones that actually combat “CANDIDA ALIBCANS.”

    Re; DIGESTIVE ENZYMES: Due to the strength and vitality of Candida’s cell wall (biofilm), experts have suggested that this is probably the most important supplement to have in our treatment plan . Being that there are shelves stocked with hundreds of products, I learned that it is important to understand what each individual ingredient has to offer and what particular “job” or function it has in the body. In fact; anti-fungals alone cannot penetrate cell walls of the yeast however, they are extremely effective once the digestive enzymes have broken down the protective coating on the cell wall allowing the anti-fungals finish the job and destroy actual cells.

    When purchasing probiotics and digestive enzymes, we need to take the extra time to be sure we are taking the appropriate enzymes / strains to ensure effective use. In regards to DIGESTIVE ENZYMES, the only effective enzymes proved to actually help kill and breakdown Candida Albicans are: CELLULASE (targets: fiber), HEMICELLULASE (targets: fiber), PROTEASES (targets: proteins), XYLANASES (targets: fiber). These specific enzymes work by breaking down and degrading the biofilm, reducing its ability to hide from the immune system and invade tissue. When you think about it, whats the use of taking all these other supplements if the actual cell wall is not broken down?? Perhaps that’s why some people take months and years to cure their particular Candida condition… they seem to be a vital component when working in conjunction with anti-fungals & probiotics.

    The same goes for Probiotics… for instance, if you are dealing with vaginal Candida, you would achieve more success by purchasing a probiotic used specifically designed to rebuild that specific area and the same goes for intestinal, etc. It may be overwhelming to read every label but, it’s not only smart but, would be a big waste of money to use something not targeted for your specific need. Probiotic strains should also be refrigerated, “live” or raw and in the billions in order to really do a good job… As with every product including vitamins, it is also important to look for soy free, etc…

    There is so much more to this and being that it took a “perfect storm” to get here, I hope to summarize and post as much information I can so the average person can deal with this as economically and quickly as possible. I am not an expert or physician but, I am just a girl trying figure it out too… hope this helps & wish you good health!

    Mess at the beach~

    REFERENCES:
    Can Digestive Enzymes Assist In Controlling Candida:
    Body Ecology
    http://bodyecology.com/a…overgrowth#.U_LDCKNlDFo

    One Enzyme That Destroys Candida:
    Body Ecology
    http://bodyecology.com/a…ys-candida#.U_QxMvb74WU

    Molybdenum:
    Author: Dr. Cooter
    http://www.mall-net.com/cooter/moly.html

    MyYeastInfectionTreatment.org
    http://myyeastinfectiont…d-molybdenum-connection/

    “Treating Candida With Grapefruit Extract”
    Author: Alan Sachs
    Positive Health On-Line
    Learn more:
    http://www.positivehealt…grapefruit-seed-extract

    How Does Caprylic Acid Kill Yeast
    Author: Lisa Thomson
    Living Strong
    Learn more:
    http://www.livestrong.co…prylic-acid-kill-yeast/

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