Reaction or Die off?

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This topic contains 9 replies, has 3 voices, and was last updated by  Able900 7 years, 3 months ago.

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  • #68854

    Lucylu
    Member
    Topics: 31
    Replies: 345

    Hi guys,

    Well, as you know I got a fairly bad rash on my hands & face and a few sores after my couple of glasses of wine last Thu & Sat. BUT it started to improve/ stabilise by monday and I thought I was on the mend and all of a sudden it took off again getting steadlily worse and by this morning (5 days after the wine) I was a state! Red raw sore rash on face, backs of hand completely covered with scaly rash, sort of prickly heat rash all up the inside of my lower & upper arms and blotches of scaly rash all over my legs (and tiny bits on my tummy & back).

    So my question is:- Is it…
    a) The toxins from the wine still working their way through the system?
    b) That I set myself back by taking the wine, regrew more yeast and now this new yeast is dieing off?
    c) Or is it fresh die off? – What I didn’t mention above is on Monday I rotated & increased my antifungals – stopped caprylic acid (because it wasn’t in the shop) and started Goldenseal & grape seed while continuing the oil of oregano & garlic & coconut oil (but far less coconut oil because I really overdosed on the taste last week). I’m taking each twice a day. While before I was just taking them all once.
    d) OR have I developed an allergy to one of the foods I’m eating? And if so do I have to scale way back to nearly nothing and just try 1 food a day? I haven’t tried anything new. I eat eggs & buckwheat/ coconut bread for breakfast and loads of allowed veg during the day either steamed, raw or sauteed/ roasted. Organic chicken every 2nd day… a bit of wild salmon. I still drink 3 or 4 lemons worth of lemon water a day and a tub of kefir each day. I just can’t think of anything I’m doing differently diet wise.

    Please help!! It’s still getting worse and I don’t have a thick enough makeup to hide the rash on my face to leave the house!!

    A rather dejected Lucy x

    #68855

    raster
    Participant
    Topics: 104
    Replies: 6838

    I think its a combination of the first 3. The alcohol could’ve really taxed your organs and it may not be leaving your body very easily, and it very likely caused more candida to grow (which isn’t leaving your body easily), and since you are on the diet still…it is dying off.

    I still will stick by my statement I made earlier that vitamin C is very good for the skin, and highly recommend that you get some (its fairly cheap). I would get the one with bioflavanoids which have detox properties beneficial for your recovery. I would also consider a sauna, hot tub, steam room, or even hot bath to help detox your bodies biggest organ, the skin.

    Additionally, it sounds like your body is highly inflamed by the alcohol, so I would look into eating/using anti-inflammatory foods and supplements. A great one is cod liver oil. I use fermented cod liver oil which is made by a more natural process (yet much more expensive) and has a more natural ratio of vitamin D.

    -Raster

    #68857

    Lucylu
    Member
    Topics: 31
    Replies: 345

    Thanks for your thoughts Raster. Well, at least when it’s the first 3 I know it will work itself through my system in time and that’s reassuring in a way. I know how well i felt last week and that makes it very easy to stick with the plan to get back to that point.

    The frustrating this about your other bits of advice is that I’m already doing all of those things but it’s not helping ease it like it should!! I’m having a sauna/ hot tub every day, taking vitamin C (was on 1000 but now taking 2000 – should I take more?), taking cod liver oil (and vit d) 1000, eating every antiinflammatory food I can find…

    BUT what that might mean is that this would be an awful lot worse if I wasn’t doing all those things? I mean, apart from the rash i’m feeling fine. No headaches, muscle aches etc. I’m pretty tired but was up with a sick child 12 times (yes 12!!) last night!! So the 1 thing I really need and can’t get at the moment is rest.

    Thanks again for coming back to me.

    L

    #68859

    Able900
    Spectator
    Topics: 92
    Replies: 4811

    Hi, Lucy.

    I think the new outbreak is a combination of the wine (the Candida are still partying apparently) and the timing of the changes you made in the antifungals.
    You reduced the intake of antifungals significantly when you stopped the Caprylic acid and lowered the amount of coconut oil – these, along with the oregano oil, were the strongest antifungals you were taking. Goldenseal and grape seed (or did you mean grapefruit seed?) are really quite weak when compared to the coconut oil and C. acid that your body was used to. You said you were taking the coconut oil twice a day; I assume that’s a tablespoon taken twice a day? If so, I can guarantee you’ll see an improvement if you raise this amount by one tablespoon every other day until you reach ten tablespoons, then stay there for about a week. To be honest, two tablespoons won’t make a nice dent in a bad Candida infestation (sorry). If the die-off starts getting too bad, then slack off and stay at one amount for maybe four days before raising it again. Believe it or not, when I saw the biggest changes in myself, I was taking 16 tablespoons of coconut oil a day (and hating every one of those with a mighty strong passion).

    Are you taking molybdenum? If you’re taking 250 mcg’s three times a day as you need to be when the Candida are dying plus the daily sauna, then you can trust that the symptoms you’re having are from the Candida and not die-off. But personally, I don’t believe the outbreak is due to die-off at all, the wine and cut back on the antifungals are too much of a coincidence if so.

    Please let us know how you’re doing tonight.

    Able

    #68873

    Lucylu
    Member
    Topics: 31
    Replies: 345

    Hi Able,

    And boy what I party I gave em?!! The rash hasn’t got any worse or better since yesterday but it’s starting to itch today because I didn’t make it to the sauna yest. Heading there this avo and have already set time aside Sat & Sun. Interestingly – my hands, although still unsightly feel totally fine. On Sunday & Monday they were painful, achey, cracked, beeling on the knuckles and I couldn’t bear to have anything touch them, even water – tough with 4 kids to change/ feed/ bathe/ hug!!

    I confused you about the antifungals (because I’m confused myself!) – Garlic & Coconut oil I had been having at least 3 times per day, up to about 8 or 10 big spoons of oil I guess. I was also oil pulling with it and then all of a sudden just the thought of it made me wretch and because I had been doing so well I slacked off and pulled back. I’ve started it again yesterday – oil pulling, coconut oil on my morning toast & snack crackers… adding a spoon to soup for lunch and using it to cook veg for dinner. I actually don’t mind the taste of it cooked, in fact it’s lovely on baked fish or roasted eggplant – but I think i was adding too much to the soup and it was kind of floating on the top luke warm & yucky! I tried it off the spoon with a warm water chaser but just couldn’t swallow it without gagging.

    As for the others, I now have so many jars lined up I’m not sure what the optimum way to take them is! There’s also a few hundred bucks worth there so I don’t want to take them in the wrong way and waste by taking too much of any. So could you advise please the quantities & frequencies of each please for maximum effect?

    What I have is:-

    Earth Source Multinutrient
    Vit C 1000mg
    Odourless Garlic gel capsules (I have at least 3 fresh cloves a day too)
    Olive leaf Extract 450mg
    Cod Live Oil 1000mg (has vit a 800ug, d 5ug & e 10mg)
    Grape Seed Extract 100mg
    Wild Oregano Oil softgels (175mg in each)
    Alfalfa 600mg
    Maximised Caprylic Acid (Octonoic Acid) 365 mg
    Vit D3 2200 IU (55ug)
    Vit B12 100 ug
    Goldenseal Root (alcohol free extract) – tincture
    Milk Thistle (af extract) – tincture
    Citradical Grapefruit Seed Extract – liquid form
    Apple Cider Vinegar

    Probiotic – the strongest I have still are Udo’s Choice super 8 (30bill 8 strains) and advanced multi billion dophilus – i’m taking both on an empty stomach first thing in the morning and waiting at least an hour before eating and then taking all the other bits above. I’m expecting my stronger one in any day – it’s Extended Health Probiotics 120 Billion, 15 strains – should I start slowley with this and build it up? Will I expect new die off?

    I can take any combination and frequency of these… I can also bin some and get others if needs be.

    I just can’t get Molybdenum here or find it online. Or undeceonic acid. I’ve a friend going to the States for Christmas though to will ask her to get me both. 2 jars of each enough? (Bearing in mind I won’t be able to get them again easily?). Also would she be able to get the Megaflora (DDS 1) for me off the shelf/ over the counter or would I have to pre order it to her US address?

    Oh, and why if I decreased my anti fungals (by taking a few days break from the Caprylic Acid) did the die off increase? That seems like a contradiction to me?

    Thanks again for any advice.

    Much appreciated.

    Lx

    #68877

    Able900
    Spectator
    Topics: 92
    Replies: 4811

    Lucy, before I post a complete reply to your last post, I had a comment about the B12 you’re taking. I don’t recall you mentioning that you’re taking a separate B12 vitamin in addition to the amounts in the multivitamin which means you’re obtaining a lot more of this one than the others.
    Keep in mind that taking a lot more of one B vitamin – that you may not need extra amounts of – can cause a deficiency in some or all of the others. Below is some information and research about how important some of the other B vitamins are to the Candida treatment. Also, remember that the probiotic as well as kefir and yogurt are adding all the B vitamins to your system everytime you have these. So what I’m saying is, unless you’ve been tested and know for a fact that you’re deficient in B12, you should leave this one out of your diet. B7 (biotin) is the only B vitamin that should be taken alone as explained in the link below (but only for a short time).

    B7 Biotin
    http://www.thecandidadiet.com/forum/yaf_postst1447_Biotin-Deficiency-and-Candida.aspx

    B12
    http://cc.bingj.com/cache.aspx?q=B12+candida&d=4864269876856148&mkt=en-US&setlang=en-US&w=9d485409,5194b6f

    B3 niacin
    http://cc.bingj.com/cache.aspx?q=B3+Candida&d=5035042068891099&mkt=en-US&setlang=en-US&w=10b54072,21ec1764

    B5 Pantothenic Acid
    http://cc.bingj.com/cache.aspx?q=Pantothenic+acid+Candida&d=5023024745024177&mkt=en-US&setlang=en-US&w=1a0d8a09,fa4851e2

    B1 thiamin or thiamine
    http://www.vitamins-supplements.org/vitamin-B1-thiamine.php

    B2 riboflavin
    http://cc.bingj.com/cache.aspx?q=candida++riboflavin&d=4849344860325601&mkt=en-US&setlang=en-US&w=268cde43,90f738d6

    Able

    #68878

    Able900
    Spectator
    Topics: 92
    Replies: 4811

    Question: So could you advise please the quantities & frequencies of each please for maximum effect?

    What I have is:-

    Earth Source Multinutrient – Take after a meal.
    Vit C 1000mg – You can work up to at least 3000 mg a day taking 1000 mg 3 X a day at anytime.
    Odourless Garlic gel capsules (I have at least 3 fresh cloves a day too) 3 a day after each meal.
    Olive leaf Extract 450mg – follow instructions – after meals
    Cod Liver Oil 1000mg (has vit a 800ug, d 5ug & e 10mg) – after your largest meal containing oil and follow instructions for amounts
    Grape Seed Extract 100mg – anytime, follow instructions for amounts
    Wild Oregano Oil softgels (175mg in each) – How many are you taking at this time? take after meals.
    Alfalfa 600mg – Follow instructions
    Maximised Caprylic Acid (Octonoic Acid) 365 mg – up to six a day after meals
    Vit D3 2200 IU (55ug) – 2-3 a day after meals containing oil
    Vit B12 100 ug – After meals if you continue to take it.
    Goldenseal Root (alcohol free extract) – tincture – follow instructins, after meals
    Milk Thistle (af extract) – tincture – instructions, after meals
    Citradical Grapefruit Seed Extract – liquid form – instructions, after meals
    Apple Cider Vinegar – anytime, up to 6-9 teaspoons a day

    Question: I’m expecting my stronger one in any day – it’s Extended Health Probiotics 120 Billion, 15 strains – should I start slowly with this and build it up? Will I expect new die off?

    Reply: Depends on how much of the infestation is left when you start it, so it’s possible that you’ll see some symptoms. And yes, start slowly and build up very gradually to allow your system to adapt. I would go ahead and take this bottle, and then afterwards hopefully you’ll have the MegaFlora which contains the DDS-1.

    Question: I just can’t get Molybdenum here or find it online. Or undeceonic acid. I’ve a friend going to the States for Christmas though to will ask her to get me both. 2 jars of each enough?

    Reply: Yes, two containers of each should be sufficient, although I’m not totally convinced that undecenoic acid works any better against Candida albicans than pure coconut oil does (although if it’s in pill form, I’m sure it’ll be easier to take, so that’s a big plus).

    Question: Also would she be able to get the Megaflora (DDS 1) for me off the shelf/ over the counter or would I have to pre order it to her US address?

    Reply: The problem with this is that MegaFlora should be in a refrigerator or on ice at all times, so during shipment or traveling it needs to be packed in ice. You can order it directly from iHerbs already packed in ice, or if your friend can purchase it from a store in the states perhaps she can pack it in ice herself, which would require a small cooler. This would work fine for the trip back to Ireland. Most of the chain stores called the “Vitamin Shoppe” as well as some independent health food stores carry MegaFlora, although probably not all.

    Question: Oh, and why if I decreased my anti fungals (by taking a few days break from the Caprylic Acid) did the die off increase? That seems like a contradiction to me?

    Reply: Not a contradiction at all. But unless I missed a symptom, the skin problems you mentioned sound more like Candida reactions than die-off to me. But you could also be experiencing die-off along with increased Candida symptoms since you’re still on the diet and are still taking the other antifungals. The amount of Candida in your system could have increased because of the wine, and the more Candida you have in your system during the treatment, the more you’re going to experience both Candida symptoms and die-off, in other words, both can occur at the same time which may have been your case.

    Able

    #68893

    Lucylu
    Member
    Topics: 31
    Replies: 345

    Hi Able,

    Thanks as always for your detailed response.

    B12 – I understand what you’re saying, I’ll stop this for now. I think I got confused because I’m also researching coeliac for my son and they’re quite often B12 deficient and need a seperate one. I think I have enought B vits including Biotin in my Multivit.

    Thanks for all the advice re the supplements. I’ll get out a pen in a second and write out a list for myself, double checking the instructions on each bottle. Most of them I was taking in the correct amounts but that was more guesswork than anything.

    That won’t work about the probiotic so. My friend will not only be flying back to Ireland but will also have to post them on to me (we live at opposite ends of the country). I’ll ask her to get the other 2 just. I’m looking forward to the new probiotic arriving and seeing what effects it has.

    I read & re-read your last paragragh about the die off vs candida symptoms and I’m still confused!! But that’s fine – it’s not as if I need to deal with either differently just keep sticking to the diet & supplements rigidly.

    It does feel like it’s 1 step forward 2 steps back but I’ve only myself to blame for that!!

    Talk soon,

    Lx

    #68938

    Lucylu
    Member
    Topics: 31
    Replies: 345

    Hi guys,

    Just wanted to give you a quick update – the rash is a funny one… in the mornings it fade a bit and I’m nearly comfortable… then throughout the day it gets hot & itchy and if I don’t have a hot bath/ sauna by late afternoon it’s very uncomfortable. BUT it was getting so unsightly and was still getting steadily worse that I decided to use a teeny tiny amount of a steroid cream on my face Friday night and early Saturday morning(it was my babies 1st birthday yesterday and we were planning a house full of guests and my face was just covered in rash) and I also jumped on the local sunbed for 6 minutes to give it a blast (I know, I know… dreadful awful things). I then had to put loads of makeup on (ladies – have you tried powder minerals makeup? Incredible at covering up) and looked pretty normal. Last night I had a very hot bath (because wa stearing at my skin on my arms & legs) and when I looked at my face after the bath I just couldn’t believe it – rash pretty much gone! My face was red from the heat and also I suppose slightly from the sunbed – but this morning I felt like I could nip out to the shop without makeup which was great!

    For the rest of the body I rooted out a treatment I’d bought a couple of years ago in the States – called Skin Zinc (with zinc pyrithione 0.25%). It has a spray and a tub of cream and you spray first… wait an hour then pu the cream on. I did is last night and this morning both times after hot baths and I’m already seeing an improvement. It will be interesting to see how it goes throughout the day and whether it gets worse again.

    I know it’s not ideal to use steroids & sunbeds (even in the tiny amounts I have) but I’m very glad I did as it’s given me my sense of positivity back. I had been getting so disheartened.

    1 question Able… if the rash persists, should I drop way back on the quantities of antifungals? Will this ease it? It will be at least another 2 weeks before I get the Molybdenum and I really would hate to look & feel like this all through christmas.

    Thanks,

    Lx

    #68973

    Able900
    Spectator
    Topics: 92
    Replies: 4811

    Hello, Lucy.
    As far as the steroids are concerned, even though this won’t cure the Candida, it can of course help with the inflammation if it flares up while you’re healing.

    Considering that you may not have the molybdenum before Christmas, cutting back on the a few antifungals for a few weeks would make sense. But keep in mind, Lucy; you really have no way of knowing for certain if the skin outbreak is a die-off symptom or a continued reaction of the infestation, and if all of this is being caused by the infestation and not die-off, then cutting back on the antifungals may only make it worse. Molybdenum is normally used for die-off symptoms, but if the infestation is still that bad, the molybdenum should also help with the toxins that the live Candida are releasing. Whatever you decide to do, I would continue the coconut oil at the amount you’re now taking since it’s a whole food source.

    Able

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