protocol review for unusual case

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This topic contains 8 replies, has 6 voices, and was last updated by  lmm 6 years, 4 months ago.

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  • #90006

    eskimo_pup
    Member
    Topics: 41
    Replies: 78

    Hi all,
    I am a chronic fatigue sufferer that is being treated with Perrin Technique, this is a technique incorporating Lymphatic massage so i am already suffering from die-off due to this treatment.

    I wanted to get my personal plan clear in my head based on the protocol kindly supplied here on the forums..

    Detox/cleanse:
    Unfortunately i will be skipping this because of my CFS.

    Antifungals:

    I’ve seen around the forum people recommending coconut oils that are very expensive unless there’s a extremely enduring reason to use these i will be going with ‘pure coconut oil’ from KTC used in cooking.

    Fresh garlic 3x a day, crushed and left to rest for 10 mins.

    is this enough?

    Probiotic:

    Will be alternating between …

    h+b probiotic acidophilus with pectin

    Protexin Bio-Kult Advanced Probiotic

    How should i alternate them?

    Vitamins/minerals/other

    As part of my current treatment i am taking:
    Milk thistle tincture 3x a day

    timed release B complex + vit c

    Magnesium 250 mg tablets [sometimes i use the spray.]

    I’m suppose to be taking chromium as well but ran out a while ago.

    I am also taking country life chelated molybdenum after reading about it here i was curious to see if it would help with the die-off from the lymphatic massage.

    I’m looking to get some cultures to make Kefir as well as get some chicory coffee but i notice a lot of these are mixed with barley so i should find it pure somewhere?

    Thankyou for the help!

    #90007

    benc
    Member
    Topics: 67
    Replies: 419

    eskimo_pup wrote: Hi all,
    I am a chronic fatigue sufferer that is being treated with Perrin Technique, this is a technique incorporating Lymphatic massage so i am already suffering from die-off due to this treatment.

    I wanted to get my personal plan clear in my head based on the protocol kindly supplied here on the forums..

    Detox/cleanse:
    Unfortunately i will be skipping this because of my CFS.

    Antifungals:

    I’ve seen around the forum people recommending coconut oils that are very expensive unless there’s a extremely enduring reason to use these i will be going with ‘pure coconut oil’ from KTC used in cooking.

    Fresh garlic 3x a day, crushed and left to rest for 10 mins.

    is this enough?

    Probiotic:

    Will be alternating between …

    h+b probiotic acidophilus with pectin

    Protexin Bio-Kult Advanced Probiotic

    How should i alternate them?

    Vitamins/minerals/other

    As part of my current treatment i am taking:
    Milk thistle tincture 3x a day

    timed release B complex + vit c

    Magnesium 250 mg tablets [sometimes i use the spray.]

    I’m suppose to be taking chromium as well but ran out a while ago.

    I am also taking country life chelated molybdenum after reading about it here i was curious to see if it would help with the die-off from the lymphatic massage.

    I’m looking to get some cultures to make Kefir as well as get some chicory coffee but i notice a lot of these are mixed with barley so i should find it pure somewhere?

    Thankyou for the help!

    I wouldn’t bother with KTC coconut oil. It cost more, but shop around, you can get good value organic virgin coconut oil thats not so processed.

    I would double check anything bought at Holland & Barratt, they are one of the worst offenders at putting fillers in supplements like maltodextrin.

    Yes chelated molybdenum is worth it.

    & deffo gets some kefir grains, its filling & give you unlimited supply of probiotics that you can trust.

    #90008

    jo2212
    Member
    Topics: 14
    Replies: 48

    Hi Eskimo Pup,

    I also suffer with chronic fatigue and get extreme die off, often in the form of fatigue, from anti fungals so from my personal experience would say coconut oil and garlic would be a good start as you will probably want to be extremely cautious not to over do it.

    I agree with Benc, I wouldn’t bother with ktc coconut oil, but if you’ve already bought it I would use it as moisturiser instead, it’s great especially as you’re already spending a lot of money flushing toxins out you don’t want to be putting more chemicals in from lotion additives.

    You can get some good prices from online shops such as goodnessdirect and buywholefoodsonline, although if you look out for the essentials brand of coconut oil it’s organic and usually pretty reasonable (I’m a student so know how important that is).

    Again Benc’s right, be wary of holland and barrett, they do have some good products but I don’t think that their probiotics is one of them. In some health food shops in england you can find udos choice in the fridge, or order it online. Also Dr Mercolas complete probiotic is shelf stable so is good for delivery. The ones recommended on this forum are available in england I think, but they’re hudely expensive here so I have avoided them.

    I got my kefir from ebay, it’s cheap, I would look out for organic milk grains (if your doing milk kefir).

    Despite what I said earlier about H+B they actually sell organic chicory coffee with nothing else added, the brands prewetts I think, personally I couldn’t tolerate it and it didn’t help at all, but worth a try I guess.

    Hope this all helps!

    How have you found the perrin technique? I’d be interested if it’s working, I’ve never heard of it before.

    Jo.

    #90016

    flailingWcandi
    Member
    Topics: 13
    Replies: 277

    eskimo_pup wrote: Hi all,
    I am a chronic fatigue sufferer that is being treated with Perrin Technique, this is a technique incorporating Lymphatic massage so i am already suffering from die-off due to this treatment.

    FYI – any massage will release toxins into the blood stream, therapeutic or not. Drinking lots of water before/after massage can help flush the toxins out of the body quicker.

    I’ve seen around the forum people recommending coconut oils that are very expensive unless there’s a extremely enduring reason to use these i will be going with ‘pure coconut oil’ from KTC used in cooking.

    pure coconut oil doesn’t contain the antifungal properties – ONLY extra virgin coconut oil does. Pure coconut oil is not a bad fat to use in cooking or for oil pulling. However, one does have to be careful not to have too high a fat intake which can cause fatty liver only adding to a healing crisis.

    Since you suspect your lymp system has issues I would suggest considering taking your basal body temp (temp upon waking). Temps below 36 (97 degrees) point to adrenal fatigue/hypothyroid issues since these endocrine systems regulate so many body systems including the immune system response. From my limited understanding, a long term immune response takes a heavy toll on the adrenal/thyroids.

    I realize there isn’t one sole cause of candida related complex however, the more I research the more adrenal fatigue/hypothyroid/anemia the more I think many here are only going to do themselves more harm than good sticking to a restricted low card diet trying to treat candida rather than the underlying cause of candida. Balancing the body is not easy nor a quick process. I suggest looking at adrenal fatigue/hypothyroid as potentially the main underlying cause.

    Beyond hormone replacement, iodine is typically low when these systems are taxed. Please do not take iodine alone, as it works with required co-factors and created some gnarly side effects without using the co-factors in my case.

    Iron supplementation to correct anemia can be tricky since it can cause constipation. I forget where I read it but, there is a connection between adrenal/thyroids and anemia as well as ferritin levels. Ferro-sequels is a product I use without having an effect on my bm’s. Perhaps it is because of just two of the co-factors Vit-C and magnesium which tend to loosen stools. Dunno….

    I wish more people understood these connections so they don’t make the same mistakes I did and waste time while only making themselves sicker in the process.

    Whew, what an enigma to unravel, eh?

    #90022

    raster
    Participant
    Topics: 104
    Replies: 6838

    Hello eskimo pup,

    Once your current bottles of supplements are gone, I would move on to products that do not contain maltodextrin which is a sugar alcohol. This is feeding candida in small amounts and can set back your progress. I noticed the Protexin Bio-Kult Advanced Probiotic contains maltodextrin.

    Skipping the cleanse is a good idea and isn’t completely necessary.

    If you like massages, I’d also consider trying acupuncture which can help detox the body, heal specific organs, and rebalance the body. Its one of the cornerstones of my treatment.

    For antifungals I would consider starting another one in a few weeks; garlic and coconut oil are good but won’t pack the punch you are looking for. Remember more antifungals means more die-off so only add in more when you are ready. SF722 is my favorite one and it has many anti-candida properties.

    For minerals and vitamins you’ll need vitamins a,c,d,e,k, trace minerals such as calcium/magnesium/zinc/selenium, and biotin (type of b vitamin). Swansons makes cheap good vitamins as well as solgar, nature’s way, and soloray. I can recommend some high end brands too if you are interested; examples include standard process, integrative therapeutics, thorne, pure encapsulations, and there are a few others.

    You’ll also need to reduce the inflammation of the gut, and a good way to do this is with cod liver oil. Fermented cod liver oil is superior but way more expensive; it contains natural ratios of vitamins A and D and has prebiotic properties.

    I haven’t heard of chickory root coffee and kefir being mixed with barley; if you do see this, don’t get it.

    Kefir is also a great source of vitamin B, so when you start drinking it in high amounts, you won’t need your b-vitamin nearly as much.

    -raster

    #90025

    eskimo_pup
    Member
    Topics: 41
    Replies: 78

    with the oil i presumed the only difference was organic i didn’t consider it’s processed differently. Some of the oil on the websites you guys have recommended are very very cheap- presumably because they are own brand. If both of these are reliable and trustworthy products i will purchase the cheapest unless again their is some benefit to the other one:

    http://www.buywholefoodsonline.co.uk/coconut-oil/

    The probiotics are still sealed so i will be returning them to h+b and the biokult ones i haven’t purchased yet, they both contain maltodextrin.

    So then i need recommendations, budget but gets the job done. Bear in mind i’ve got this other treatment giving me die-off and i have cfs so i don’t want to charge at the infection like a bull in a china shop.

    I can’t get any more cheap milk thistle tincture in the h+b sales as it’s discontinued, are tablets ok? I will also be avoiding h+b if possible now i have alternatives, truth is i didn’t know where else to go.

    Is it ok to have both probiotics and kefir or will it overload my system?

    How have you found the perrin technique? I’d be interested if it’s working, I’ve never heard of it before.

    I would say it’s definitely not a quick fix, it is expensive, long term [roughly 2/3 years] and painful but yes I’ve seen good results on it.

    Dr. Perrin who is actually an osteopath but was rewarded an honorary degree for his research into CFS/M.E. put the system together when he realized some of his patients were having unintended positive reactions towards their CFS symptoms as a result of his standard osteopathic sessions.

    He then went on a crusade to get to the bottom of it and that is what earned him is honorary degree and led to the Perrin Technique.

    “….Dr Perrin’s theory that different stress factors whether physical, allergies, emotional or infections lead to an overstrain of the sympathetic nervous system.

    Further investigation has led to a probable cause of this nervous system overload being a build up of toxins in the fluid around the brain and the spinal cord.

    The toxins are also meant to drain down the spinal cord and out into the lymph ducts lying along the spine. In a CFS/ME sufferer these normal drainage points are congested…”

    “…The sympathetic nerves also have been found to control a pump mechanism within the main drainage of the lymphatic system which becomes disturbed in CFS/ME. The resultant backflow further engorges the lymphatic vessels, especially in the chest and neck.”

    You can buy the book from Amazon which details the technique. Essentially it’s lymphatic massage and some exercises. The lymphatic system is one of the bodies methods to clear toxins but it has no pump as such like the heart, it relies on physical activity to move the toxins through and people with CFS get very little of that.

    Bear in mind i’m a layman so there’s a lot more to it then that. Anyway as a result of lymphatic massage all the toxins that have built up in the body over time go into the bloodstream causing die-off.

    You are always cautioned you will feel worse before feeling better! Die-off reactions as you can imagine vary anywhere from mild to very severe.

    Dr. Perrin has many detractors that call him a fraud but it is worth noting there have been research trials with universities and i believe more recently with the NHS.

    I think in trials the success rate was between 40 to 55 % but don’t quote me on that.

    All research papers and info is on his website and i believe a six part lecture is on youtube.

    Got any specific questions aimed at me feel free! D:

    #90043

    raster
    Participant
    Topics: 104
    Replies: 6838

    I just wanted to chime in and say that my naturopath very much believes in this spinal fluid buildup being a factor in many peoples general health and it directly relates to seizures and mental health as well. I personally experienced seizures before and during my treatment and it completely went away after I started super neurogen (heals the brain) and e3AFA (essential fatty acids which drain the spinal fluid). I may have gotten these two supplements confused in what they do.

    Anyways, there are supplements that help drain the spinal fluid as well as acupuncture points that do it as well. As I’ve started to heal the brain and drain the fluids, my mental clarity has increased significantly and I am quite a bit sharper in general. I have noticed other changes as well but it is hard to place exactly what neurological differences I am experiencing because they are difficult to describe. In general, once I started these two supplements, I’ve started to feel a lot better and it has topped off my treatment. This week I was very surprised with myself and how I felt, I am feeling like I did 5 years ago.

    Certain things deplete brain and cause spinal fluid buildup; examples include medication, stimulants, caffeine, smoking, wheat, barley, rye, alcohol, sugar, etc (basically everything we are avoiding on the diet).

    -raster

    #90169

    eskimo_pup
    Member
    Topics: 41
    Replies: 78

    Hi all,

    With regards to helping the brain during the treatment the Perrin Technique puts you on a product called vegepa unfortunately i lost all the bottles i brought!

    Vegepa E-EPA 70 contains the patented combination of highly purified EPA (without DHA, which is another type of fatty acid that is believed, in supplement form, to inhibit the benefits of EPA) and virgin evening primrose oil (EPO).

    I have returned the probiotics to holland and barrett but now i need recommendations for budget but trustworthy probiotics. I’ve looked at some recommendations on the thread and found them to dear.

    I will need the same for milk thistle, for the other vits and minerals i will look at the companies raster listed.

    coconut oil i will be purchasing from wholefoodsdirect as i posted previously, a big thankyou to jo2212 for the company though i would like to know which of the two brands i should get.

    I wanted to buy my kefir here:
    http://www.kefirshop.co.uk/shop.htm

    But it seems they are sold out and almost all of the other stores are too, i’m not a big fan of ebay either. guess i have to wait until they have fresh stock, presumably i should get the bog standard milk kefir [organic?] and not crystals or water kefir grains.

    Also yesterday i saw my doctor for blood test results, she has given me vit-d supplements [fultium- d gel 800u caps]. After tackling her about my sore throat for the 4/5th time she palmed me off again with the idea that my throat was dry because i was ‘mouth breathing’ as my nose felt blocked.

    After she looked at my discoloured tongue she finally conceded the only other thing that could look like that was thrush. So now i most likely have candida infection in my throat and bottom. Is this common?

    I have been given 30ml of nystatin to deal with it, net doctor states ‘this product contains sugar’. Then again it is a potent antifungal so i’m not sure what to think.

    Will i get any adverse die-off or anything using this?

    Thanks all.

    #91880

    lmm
    Member
    Topics: 29
    Replies: 138

    eskimo_pup;28418 wrote: with the oil i presumed the only difference was organic i didn’t consider it’s processed differently. Some of the oil on the websites you guys have recommended are very very cheap- presumably because they are own brand. If both of these are reliable and trustworthy products i will purchase the cheapest unless again their is some benefit to the other one:

    http://www.buywholefoodsonline.co.uk/coconut-oil/

    The probiotics are still sealed so i will be returning them to h+b and the biokult ones i haven’t purchased yet, they both contain maltodextrin.

    So then i need recommendations, budget but gets the job done. Bear in mind i’ve got this other treatment giving me die-off and i have cfs so i don’t want to charge at the infection like a bull in a china shop.

    I can’t get any more cheap milk thistle tincture in the h+b sales as it’s discontinued, are tablets ok? I will also be avoiding h+b if possible now i have alternatives, truth is i didn’t know where else to go.

    Is it ok to have both probiotics and kefir or will it overload my system?

    How have you found the perrin technique? I’d be interested if it’s working, I’ve never heard of it before.

    I would say it’s definitely not a quick fix, it is expensive, long term [roughly 2/3 years] and painful but yes I’ve seen good results on it.

    Dr. Perrin who is actually an osteopath but was rewarded an honorary degree for his research into CFS/M.E. put the system together when he realized some of his patients were having unintended positive reactions towards their CFS symptoms as a result of his standard osteopathic sessions.

    He then went on a crusade to get to the bottom of it and that is what earned him is honorary degree and led to the Perrin Technique.

    “….Dr Perrin’s theory that different stress factors whether physical, allergies, emotional or infections lead to an overstrain of the sympathetic nervous system.

    Further investigation has led to a probable cause of this nervous system overload being a build up of toxins in the fluid around the brain and the spinal cord.

    The toxins are also meant to drain down the spinal cord and out into the lymph ducts lying along the spine. In a CFS/ME sufferer these normal drainage points are congested…”

    “…The sympathetic nerves also have been found to control a pump mechanism within the main drainage of the lymphatic system which becomes disturbed in CFS/ME. The resultant backflow further engorges the lymphatic vessels, especially in the chest and neck.”

    You can buy the book from Amazon which details the technique. Essentially it’s lymphatic massage and some exercises. The lymphatic system is one of the bodies methods to clear toxins but it has no pump as such like the heart, it relies on physical activity to move the toxins through and people with CFS get very little of that.

    Bear in mind i’m a layman so there’s a lot more to it then that. Anyway as a result of lymphatic massage all the toxins that have built up in the body over time go into the bloodstream causing die-off.

    You are always cautioned you will feel worse before feeling better! Die-off reactions as you can imagine vary anywhere from mild to very severe.

    Dr. Perrin has many detractors that call him a fraud but it is worth noting there have been research trials with universities and i believe more recently with the NHS.

    I think in trials the success rate was between 40 to 55 % but don’t quote me on that.

    All research papers and info is on his website and i believe a six part lecture is on youtube.

    Got any specific questions aimed at me feel free! D:

    Just to chip in about the Perrin technique – I’ve found it really very helpful in removing toxin building-up. I’ve been visiting a practitioner (at first once every week, then every fortnight) and doing my own exercises (5 minutes of massaging at night and head drainage exercises 3 x per day) for 5 months, and I’ve now got the energy to walk my dog, etc.

    Eskimo_pup: I don’t know why you’re finding it painful; it isn’t supposed to be. Do you mean that the massaging reveals your lymphatic system to be blocked and sore? Of course, this is exactly what is the root of the toxicity problem; but the soreness diminishes after a while.

    So, in sum: I’ve found it very helpful for my CFS, and at the point when I’m beginning to increase my toxic load through die-off, indispensable!

    Len

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