Probiotic Leaky gut conflict???

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This topic contains 24 replies, has 9 voices, and was last updated by  impossible 5 years, 1 month ago.

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  • #76436

    Thomas
    Member
    Topics: 71
    Replies: 605

    Hi guys,
    I wonder about a probiotics and leakygut conflict.
    Is there a possibility that probiotica bacteria are getting out into the bloodstream through a leaky gut condition causing violent reactions from the immune system?

    If we take probiotics and millions of bacteria are floating into the intestines is there not the possibility that they too are getting out of the intestines causing problems?

    I took my probiotics and got quite strong reactions similar to a immune system freaking out. Now when I stopped with them I feel quite good. A lot of my symptoms are calming down too.

    cheers
    Thomas

    #76438

    Able900
    Spectator
    Topics: 92
    Replies: 4811

    Thomas wrote: Hi guys, I wonder about a probiotics and leakygut conflict. Is there a possibility that probiotica bacteria are getting out into the bloodstream through a leaky gut condition causing violent reactions from the immune system?
    If we take probiotics and millions of bacteria are floating into the intestines is there not the possibility that they too are getting out of the intestines causing problems?
    I took my probiotics and got quite strong reactions similar to a immune system freaking out. Now when I stopped with them I feel quite good. A lot of my symptoms are calming down too.

    I doubt this possibility, Thomas, since beneficial bacteria are supposed to be one of the main supplements for curing Leaky Gut.
    But I’ll do some researh on the subject as soon as I can today or tonight.
    Meanwhile, can you describe those symptoms you spoke of? Also, which probiotic are you taking?

    Able

    #76443

    Thomas
    Member
    Topics: 71
    Replies: 605

    Able900 wrote:

    Hi guys, I wonder about a probiotics and leakygut conflict. Is there a possibility that probiotica bacteria are getting out into the bloodstream through a leaky gut condition causing violent reactions from the immune system?
    If we take probiotics and millions of bacteria are floating into the intestines is there not the possibility that they too are getting out of the intestines causing problems?
    I took my probiotics and got quite strong reactions similar to a immune system freaking out. Now when I stopped with them I feel quite good. A lot of my symptoms are calming down too.

    I doubt this possibility, Thomas, since beneficial bacteria are supposed to be one of the main supplements for curing Leaky Gut.
    But I’ll do some researh on the subject as soon as I can today or tonight.
    Meanwhile, can you describe those symptoms you spoke of? Also, which probiotic are you taking?

    Able

    Hi Able,
    Thank you for resurging that question. I get a strange feeling in the stomach and directly a reaction in my nervous-system with anxiety, dizziness, nausea and heart palpations. The wired stress symptoms, internal shaking’s and a strong felt heartbeat in the stomach have all stopped now after I stopped taking my probioticas.

    I am using these two:
    Flora Ultra
    http://www.greatlife.se/halsoprodukter/tarmbakterie-flora-ultra-strength/

    Mutaflor
    Active ingredient: Escherichia coli strain Nissle 1917
    Applications: Ulcerative colitis in remission, chronic constipation. Suspension: diarrhea in infants, toddlers and children, diarrhea in infants, toddlers and children under tube feeding, colonization prophylaxis in preterm and term infants, the postnatal increase in immune competence in preterm and term infants.
    For risks and side effects read the package insert and ask your doctor or pharmacist.

    #76469

    orka1998
    Participant
    Topics: 53
    Replies: 673

    I get very similar symptoms as Thomas but I counted it as die-off. Twice now when I fell really ill with die-off I stopped probiotic and got better. Then I take it and those symptoms are back and I go into another episode of being sick. It’s so difficult to tell what’s die-off and what’s reaction!

    #76472

    Able900
    Spectator
    Topics: 92
    Replies: 4811

    Thomas wrote: I get a strange feeling in the stomach and directly a reaction in my nervous-system with anxiety, dizziness, nausea and heart palpations. The wired stress symptoms, internal shaking’s and a strong felt heartbeat in the stomach have all stopped now after I stopped taking my probioticas.

    I am using these two:
    Flora Ultra
    http://www.greatlife.se/halsoprodukter/tarmbakterie-flora-ultra-strength/

    Mutaflor
    Active ingredient: Escherichia coli strain Nissle 1917

    Thomas, I don’t really think that the probiotic is bothering your leaky gut problems, since, as I stated earlier, the beneficial bacteria will help to heal the problem.

    Were you taking both of these probiotic on the same days?

    Innate Flora 20-14 is a very strong probiotic, plus it contains the Lactobacillus acidophilus DDS-1 which makes it even more powerful when fighting Candida. I would wager that what you’re experiencing is the die-off because the probiotic is killing the Candida by the millions.

    Do you have Molybdenum yet?

    If not, I suggest that you take just one of the probiotics every third day only and if you have milk thistle, take it three times a day. You should soak in a hot tub of water as many times a day as you can especially on the days you take the probiotic.

    Let me know how this goes, please.
    Able

    #76486

    candida_sucks
    Member
    Topics: 3
    Replies: 148

    Thomas wrote: Hi guys,
    I wonder about a probiotics and leakygut conflict.
    Is there a possibility that probiotica bacteria are getting out into the bloodstream through a leaky gut condition causing violent reactions from the immune system?

    If we take probiotics and millions of bacteria are floating into the intestines is there not the possibility that they too are getting out of the intestines causing problems?

    I took my probiotics and got quite strong reactions similar to a immune system freaking out. Now when I stopped with them I feel quite good. A lot of my symptoms are calming down too.

    cheers
    Thomas

    Thomas,

    I’ve experienced the exact same thing. I started out taking MegaFlora 20 billion/capsule once a day for a while, and over the span of 6 weeks or so gradually worked my way up to MegaFlora Plus 50 billion/capsule twice a day. After a while I noticed that the higher the dose I took, the worse I felt. So I stopped taking all probiotics, and felt much better. Then as an experiment I took some probiotics again one day, and again my symptoms intensified. Note that I didn’t start taking the MegaFlora until I was already about 2 months into my candida diet. For the first two months I was taking a different, lower-CFU probiotic.

    I suppose I can’t argue against Able’s thinking that it’s die-off due to the probiotics kicking ass, but at the same time I share your thought that some of this bacteria must be getting out into the bloodstream and evoking an immune reaction. It’s been a little while for me, but what I remember is that the increase in symptoms would occur within just a couple hours of taking the probiotics, and they would stay elevated for many hours before tapering off. It just felt like a leaky gut response to me. I have been off probiotics for about two weeks. I make sure to eat prebiotic foods, though.

    I know that good bacteria helps to heal leaky gut, but at the same time how could some bacteria not leak through to the bloodstream? Is bacteria too large to fit through the gaps? Or does the bacteria just “stick” really well to any surface it comes in contact with, and not leak out?

    Cheers

    #76513

    Thomas
    Member
    Topics: 71
    Replies: 605

    Hi Able,
    thank you for looking into it. I believe we should keep a focus on the subject until its very clear that it is impossible. I found it interesting that 3 off us here already have the same experience. We all experience the same symptoms and the release. Now off course it could be die-off but it doesn’t need to be so.

    What struck me is that I found a warning text of a German probiotic which reads like this:

    Besondere Vorsicht bei der Einnahme ist erforderlich wenn:

    Sie an schweren Grundkrankheiten im Bereich des Magen Darm Traktes leiden.
    Saccharomyces boulardii ist ein lebender Mikroorganismus, der unter unguenstigen Bedingungen, wie sie bei abwehrgeschwächten Patienten auftreten, durch eine Wanderung aus dem Magen-Darm-Trakt in den Blutkreislauf oder durch äussere Verunreinigung von Zentralvenenkathetern generalisierte Pilzinfektionen bei Krankenhauspatienten bekannt…..

    Google translate:

    Particular caution is required when taking:

    They suffer from severe underlying diseases of the gastrointestinal tract.
    Saccharomyces boulardii is a live microorganism that occur under unfavorable conditions, such as in immunocompromised patients, with a hike from the gastro-intestinal tract into the blood stream or through external contamination of central venous catheters generalized fungal infections in hospital patients known …..

    I highlighted the for me interesting part. What do you think about the possibility mentioned here.

    Cheers
    Thomas

    #76520

    Able900
    Spectator
    Topics: 92
    Replies: 4811

    Thomas wrote: Saccharomyces boulardii is a live microorganism that occur under unfavorable conditions, such as in immunocompromised patients, with a hike from the gastro-intestinal tract into the blood stream or through external contamination of central venous catheters generalized fungal infections in hospital patients known …..

    Thomas, the information you posted concerns Saccharomyces boulardii, and this is not one of the probiotics that I normally advocate on the forum. As you’ve seen in my posts concerning probiotics I’ve only recommended the following strains of beneficial bacteria (found in Megaflora or Innate probiotics) to be taken on a regular basis:

    Lactobacillus rhamnosus
    Bifidobacterium bifidum
    Lactobacillus acidophilus
    Bifidobacterium infantis
    Bifidobacterium longum
    Streptococcus thermophilus
    Lactobacillus plantarum
    Lactobacillus salivarius
    Lactobacillus acidophilus
    Lactobacillus reuteri
    Lactobacillus casei
    Lactobacillus bulgaricus
    Lactobacillus acidophilus DDS-1
    Lactobacillus sporogenes
    Bacillus lactis
    Lactobacillus brevis

    As you see, Saccharomyces boulardii is not on this list. S. boulardii is a soil-based probiotic which cannot colonize in the human intestines. I did not take this strain of bacteria during my treatment and cure, and most of the members who are improving their infestatin didn’t either, so I can’t really tell you anything about this bacteria other than what I’ve read. The point is, a cure is apparently possible without it.

    Below is just one of the warnings that the manufacturer has published about this probiotic:

    “Patients with compromised immune systems should consult a doctor prior to using Saccharomyces boulardii supplements, as there is a possibility of the development of fungal infections.”

    I’m afraid I know next to nothing about the other probiotic you’re taking, Mutaflor, I have never recommended it and it has been discontinued from the U.S. market. Does this probiotic contain the Saccharomyces boulardii bacteria?

    Able

    #76528

    Thomas
    Member
    Topics: 71
    Replies: 605

    Able900 wrote:

    Saccharomyces boulardii is a live microorganism that occur under unfavorable conditions, such as in immunocompromised patients, with a hike from the gastro-intestinal tract into the blood stream or through external contamination of central venous catheters generalized fungal infections in hospital patients known …..

    Thomas, the information you posted concerns Saccharomyces boulardii, and this is not one of the probiotics that I normally advocate on the forum. As you’ve seen in my posts concerning probiotics I’ve only recommended the following strains of beneficial bacteria (found in Megaflora or Innate probiotics) to be taken on a regular basis:

    Lactobacillus rhamnosus
    Bifidobacterium bifidum
    Lactobacillus acidophilus
    Bifidobacterium infantis
    Bifidobacterium longum
    Streptococcus thermophilus
    Lactobacillus plantarum
    Lactobacillus salivarius
    Lactobacillus acidophilus
    Lactobacillus reuteri
    Lactobacillus casei
    Lactobacillus bulgaricus
    Lactobacillus acidophilus DDS-1
    Lactobacillus sporogenes
    Bacillus lactis
    Lactobacillus brevis

    As you see, Saccharomyces boulardii is not on this list. S. boulardii is a soil-based probiotic which cannot colonize in the human intestines. I did not take this strain of bacteria during my treatment and cure, and most of the members who are improving their infestatin didn’t either, so I can’t really tell you anything about this bacteria other than what I’ve read. The point is, a cure is apparently possible without it.

    Below is just one of the warnings that the manufacturer has published about this probiotic:

    “Patients with compromised immune systems should consult a doctor prior to using Saccharomyces boulardii supplements, as there is a possibility of the development of fungal infections.”

    I’m afraid I know next to nothing about the other probiotic you’re taking, Mutaflor, I have never recommended it and it has been discontinued from the U.S. market. Does this probiotic contain the Saccharomyces boulardii bacteria?

    Able

    Hi Able,
    no, I am not taking the saccharomyces boulardii. It was send wrongly from my father too me thinking that he did right. I was more interested in the general thing. That if one bacteria can penetrate the intestines can not another one too? Mutaflan I took for a while as it was recommended in Germany for healing leaky gut and IBS. Its a human derived bacteria. It has been done since 1917 in Germany and is considered very safe because of the very long experience with it but the strain. It comes from a single soldier who was the only one not effected and slained in a stomach epidemic.

    This bacteria was never found in another person before and the entire battle group got very sick and many died but not him. So they wondered and found the bacteria in his intestines and developed mutaflor from it.

    Anyhow the main question is: Is it possible that bacteria can penetrate the intestines if one has a leaky gut. From the warning, I at least get a feeling that this could be well possible.

    yours
    thomas

    #76531

    Able900
    Spectator
    Topics: 92
    Replies: 4811

    Thomas wrote: Is there a possibility that probiotica bacteria are getting out into the bloodstream through a leaky gut condition causing violent reactions from the immune system?

    Thomas, all I can find as far as research is what I’ve been stating on the forum, “probiotics alleviate the leaky gut syndrome.” As you see, this means that the probiotics can and will cure leaky gut.

    I can’t tell you that the probiotics are “causing violent reactions from the immune system” because I haven’t been able to find the proof in research. Personally, I don’t believe that this is the cause of your problems. I believe that, if you’re taking probiotics and at the same time you are not protecting yourself from the die-off toxins, then this is your problem. Fact: As you cure the leaky gut syndrome, you also improve the immune system.

    Here are two specific studies on Iintestinal Permeability (Leaky Gut Syndrome) which proves that probiotics are beneficial to intestinal permeability and not harmful to the immune system.

    Quote: “Probiotic Escherichia coli Nissle 1917 Inhibits Leaky Gut by Enhancing Mucosal Integrity.”

    http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0001308

    Quote: “Effect of probiotics on gastrointestinal symptoms and small intestinal permeability in children…”

    http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S0022347604006341?via=sd

    Really sorry I can’t give you more, Thomas, but I’ve just not found it.

    Able

    #76552

    Thomas
    Member
    Topics: 71
    Replies: 605

    NP Able, I was not expecting a quickfix either but only opening up for awareness on all fronts. I am going to test it out. Its not that I dont want to protect myself from die-off. I am not a masochist! 😉 LOL No, we dont get here the right Molybedenum and ordering it from the states a poor unemployed bastard like me has first to think how to feed his kids. But believe me I am saving the coins to order the stuff in time and then I am checking it out again.

    all the best
    yours
    Thomas

    #76572

    Able900
    Spectator
    Topics: 92
    Replies: 4811

    Its not that I dont want to protect myself from die-off. I am not a masochist!

    Thomas, my friend, I was by no means insinuating that you were not protecting yourself on purpose, I remember that you were unable to obtain the correct Molybdenum; and that’s why I suggested that you “take just one of the probiotics every third day only and if you have milk thistle, take it three times a day. You should soak in a hot tub of water as many times a day as you can especially on the days you take the probiotic.” This should help protect you from the dangerous toxins if nothing else.

    Let us know how the probiotic test goes please.
    Thanks, Able

    #76591

    candida_sucks
    Member
    Topics: 3
    Replies: 148

    Able900 wrote:

    I believe that, if you’re taking probiotics and at the same time you are not protecting yourself from the die-off toxins, then this is your problem.

    For what it’s worth, I take 750 mcg of Molybdenum a day, plus lots of vitamin C and other anti-oxidants such as turmeric, and yet experienced the same thing that Thomas did.

    Let’s say for a moment that it really is die-off and not a leaky-gut immune response. Is there an explanation for why the die-off surges within a short time of taking probiotics, only to taper down after a while? Do ingested probiotics really kick in that fast, such that I always get a die-off surge within a couple hours of taking them?

    #76612

    Javizy
    Member
    Topics: 20
    Replies: 945

    I get some pretty messed up reactions to probiotics too. If I take one before bed, I wake up dehydrated with terrible skin and brain fog. It feels like the earlier stages of the diet, which I assume means I experience some pretty severe die-off while sleeping.

    Since the probiotics compete with pathogens, including candida, and act as natural antibiotics, die-off makes a lot of sense. If your problem has been years in the making, then your gut flora are probably being dominated by pathogens.

    I’ve got no idea how long it takes to reverse a bad case of dysbiosis, but I got the impression it’s a long-term process from a book I was reading about digestive complaints. Probiotics don’t quickly eliminate strains of bad bacteria completely, so it’s probably an ongoing battle until your friendly gut flora are able to re-establish control. Of course, you give the pathogens an upper-hand every time you break from the diet.

    #76615

    Thomas
    Member
    Topics: 71
    Replies: 605

    Thank you guys. Its very information and good to know how its working out for you. I was astonished that other experience the same thing as I. I thought it is only me being confused about the symptoms circus.

    Right now I dont take anything and feel better than in the entire year. Right now in this moment I have no sympthoms. Yesterday I only had that stupid rectal itching. But when you know where I come and the hell of sympthoms this is a holiday for me.

    For one week I am 95 percent symptom free while eating fruit and oat meals and nuts.
    I will continue my experiences and order a great book about IBS to understand that area of problems.

    all the best
    Thomas

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