- March 10, 2013 at 2:38 am #100212
This is an interesting answer Dr. Sidney Baker, a pioneer candida researcher Dr, gave to a mother of an autistic child who asked about die-off reactions and how to treat yeast overgrowth.
Answered: September 18, 2012 by Dr. Sidney Baker
Two days ago I had a follow-up visit with a family whose 7 year-old boy, Allen, had started taking Saccharomyces boulardii for a 20-day trial, working up to 1 capsule in the morning and 2 in the evening. His mom’s words were, “…this is not like him before starting the trial.” Previously a nightly bed-soaker, he had “wet his bed only 3 times.” “It is easier to deal with him, he is talking more. At night when he awakens he says things like ‘Mama’ ‘mommy’ and ‘used to’ –but not conversationally. During the day, he is more conversational and we can negotiate with him more.”
Ever since 1977 when I first understood the possibilities of yeast “overgrowth” and sensitivities to provoke all sorts of symptoms, I have heard such reports hundreds…no, actually, thousands…of times. This issue – the “yeast problem” is one of the most widely misunderstood subjects among doctors, scientists, and regular people.
Recent burst of information and scientific enthusiasm to better understand the enormous regulatory role of our microbiome (flora, all the germs that live on and in the body, particularly the digestive tract) opened the door to tolerate a simple idea. That idea was first published by Orian Truss, MD in scientific papers and then in his book “Missing Diagnosis.”
Sweet foods, antibiotics and sometimes more mysterious predispositions cause an imbalance among the germs in the digestive tract. Among the bacteria and fungi that compose the microbiome, it’s the yeasts (a subset of fungi) that most often cause mischief. When the yeasts are killed by anti-fungal drugs, a burst of toxins and allergens is produced. In the case of my patient, the effects of that release, known as a die-off reaction, was to worsen his runny stuffy nose, to waken – alert – at night with difficulty going back to sleep, and to pee a lot (but not in his bed!).
I prescribed the over-the-counter Saccharomyces boulardii (a yeast that kills other yeasts) to test whether he would “respond.” I did not know that Saccharomyces boulardii (S. b., as I prefer to call it) would work. I called it a thumbs test: good result in 20 days – thumbs up; die-off reaction with negative results – thumbs down; mixed results – one up one down; no results – thumbs sideways. The point of a thumbs test is that no matter the outcome, we have learned something that may be more important than the relief of symptoms.
Think about it this way: In most conventional medical settings, treatment often is something directed at a disease or a condition. In the way we did it for Allen, treatment is a test until the results of the intervention are revealed by his response. Only then can the treatment be based on a reasonable assumption that it is the right treatment. In other words, the patient is the best laboratory.
When the treatment options are relatively safe, then a diagnostic trial can often be the most effective and efficient way of deciding upon treatment. The phrase evidenced-based medicine (EBM) is used regularly nowadays to describe a standard for medical practices. EBM has limitations that come from the notion that the disease is the target of treatment.
In treating chronic illness, particularly when the chronic illness is referred to as a “spectrum,” it is especially important, in my view, to consider the patient as the target of treatment, with a clear understanding that each person is unique. The differences among children, who all share the same autism label, are nowhere more apparent than in the case of die-off reactions.
Die-off reactions are very unpredictable. About one third of die-off reactions are minimal and involve indicator symptoms such as red ears. Another third are moderate and involve an increase in the intensity or frequency of the symptoms that already exists, such as hyperactivity, stimming, silliness, bloating, diarrhea, or constipation.
Among the other third, we find symptoms that the child has never had before, such as wheezing, eczema, or symptoms that may have previously disappeared. This third includes symptoms that may cause alarm. Activated charcoal can be used to relieve the symptoms by absorbing the toxins and allergens released during the die-off. The point is that die-off can be mild, mixed with positive and negative symptoms, and/or rarely be downright alarming.
Years ago when I first started prescribing antifungal medications such as Diflucan, Sporanox, and Lamisil, when they first came on the market, I could not be sure that a die-off reaction was not a reaction to the medication in the conventional sense of the word. Twenty years hence, I can say now that, with one exception involving one instance of 1 in 40,000 (those are the known odds) reaction to Lamisil in an adult, I have never seen side effects to prescription antifungals except for dry lips and occasional hair loss in adults from Diflucan. Mild elevations of “liver function tests” also occur and under most circumstances are a deal-breaker for that particular medication.
Meanwhile, the benefits from trial usage of antifungals, in terms of clinical results and knowledge gained, to support decision-making for each child has been enormous. 35 years ago when I first learned about using antifungals in patients with a variety of chronic illnesses, I simply resorted to a speculative trial of antifungal medications, restriction of refined carbohydrates and avoidance of yeasty foods in my patients. The responses were dramatic – I should say cures – of psoriasis, depression, Crohn’s disease, ulcerative colitis, multiple allergies, and alopecia.
It was responsiveness to antifungals that first got my attention with respect to developmental problems in children. I had become used to the familiar story of recurring antibiotics followed by the development of some chronic symptom such as eczema, asthma, multiple food sensitivities and tantrums or cranky behavior. A brief trial of antifungal medication was often sufficient to restore the child to a previous state of health. It wasn’t long before I came across children whose symptom profile put them squarely in what we now call the autism spectrum. I found that antifungal drugs worked not only for some of the issues of immune and central nervous system sensitivity but also for the core symptoms of autism.
For some individuals on the autism spectrum, the combination of S. b., a yeast-free diet, and avoidance of refined carbohydrates is all it takes to produce a dramatic improvement. For these individuals, they chose to continue that program indefinitely. For others, it is the first step in a path with other antifungal options and consideration of the autoimmune issues that lie beneath the complex interaction between germs and the immune system.March 10, 2013 at 3:08 am #100213
Danny33MemberTopics: 25Replies: 362
This just reinforces everything explained here on this forum.
I just started taking Saccharomyces boulardii a few days ago (10 billion a day.
Is anybody currently taking this with good results?March 10, 2013 at 8:16 am #100223
shell1226MemberTopics: 8Replies: 71
I am, Danny. My Dr. started me on it when I was first diagnosed. I’ve been taking it for about 2.5 mths now.
I can’t say for certain how well it is working as I am taking several things since starting this journey. All I know is that I am getting better, so I’ll keep with it.March 10, 2013 at 9:39 am #100231
lmmMemberTopics: 29Replies: 139
D’you think it’s worth going straight to S.b. over conventional treatments like SF722?March 10, 2013 at 1:08 pm #100244
jameskepParticipantTopics: 25Replies: 220
Usually probiotic supplementation is done when the “fungal” candida is at the bare minimum. Fungal candida is stronger than yeast probiotics so you want to convert candida to its less pathogenic yeast form before you supplement with probiotics/S.boulardi. If someone has too much fungal candida probiotics might just cause uncomfortable symptoms with no results–meaning the fungal candida will just wipe out the probiotic before it even has a chance to colonize and the only end result you get is a bad die-off symptoms.March 10, 2013 at 3:47 pm #100250
Danny33;38716 wrote: This just reinforces everything explained here on this forum.
I just started taking Saccharomyces boulardii a few days ago (10 billion a day.
Is anybody currently taking this with good results?
10 billions is a low dosage. Rise it to 25 or 30 billions a day. Take a magnesium tablet diary if it causes constipation.
Give it time and continue the diet.
Jorge.March 10, 2013 at 3:55 pm #100251
jameskep;38747 wrote: Usually probiotic supplementation is done when the “fungal” candida is at the bare minimum. Fungal candida is stronger than yeast probiotics so you want to convert candida to its less pathogenic yeast form before you supplement with probiotics/S.boulardi. If someone has too much fungal candida probiotics might just cause uncomfortable symptoms with no results–meaning the fungal candida will just wipe out the probiotic before it even has a chance to colonize and the only end result you get is a bad die-off symptoms.
It looks like S. Boulardii impedes candida adherence to the epithelial cells. It is a mechanism don’t known yet according to my reading. I am taking 36 billions a day with an almost normal diet and am doing well. In fact, I feel progress even with the kind of diet I am having. I can not image how it will be if I restrict more my diet.
I never understood how Remi96 cured her terrible candida case with S. Boulardii and enemas. She has been well since I have contacted her recently.
I have read more studies about the anticandida activity of it and I am really optimistic it is a good value in this war.
Jorge.March 10, 2013 at 4:51 pm #100256
Able900SpectatorTopics: 92Replies: 4814
jameskep;38747 wrote: Fungal candida is stronger than yeast probiotics so you want to convert candida to its less pathogenic yeast form before you supplement with probiotics/S.boulardi…
If someone has too much fungal candida probiotics might just cause uncomfortable symptoms with no results–meaning the fungal candida will just wipe out the probiotic before it even has a chance to colonize and the only end result you get is a bad die-off symptoms.
That’s not completely correct. But your reasoning is why I’ve always recommended such extreme amounts of the probiotics combined with prebiotics, minus foods for the Candida.
Your basic theory, however, has one major flaw: you can’t convert Candida albicans to its less pathogenic yeast form without the beneficial bacteria first changing the environment of the Candida – which allowed them to turn on their fungal gene in the first place.
Once the fungal form, Candida albicans, has been converted into its basically harmless yeast form, you’ve cured the infestation. So what
you’re suggesting is to avoid probiotics until there is no longer an overgrowth. This won’t work.
However, if you’re talking about taking Lactic acid bacteria (regular beneficial bacteria) throughout the treatment and then taking S. Boulardii later, after all symptoms have disappeared, then I see no problem with this since S. Boulardii appears to act only as another antifungal. Personally, I never used the S. Boulardii yeast during my entire treatment, only the natural Lactic acid bacteria probiotics.
AbleMarch 11, 2013 at 2:27 pm #100320
jameskepParticipantTopics: 25Replies: 220
“I’ve always recommended such extreme amounts of the probiotics combined with prebiotics, minus foods for the Candida.”
Prebiotics should be introduced once the good bacteria outnumbers the candida. Candida is highly capable of utilizing prebiotics and if the “fungal” candida outnumbers the good bacteria this will be counter productive. Same goes for probiotics. Most good candida programs will recommend probiotics towards the end of the program–its more effective that way.
Agree. Beneficial flora has to be restored to keep candida from going pathogeneic, but for someone who has a gut that is dominated by fungal candida with little good flora– probiotics will just get wiped out by the fungal candida without it even having a chance to do anything. All you get in between is a immune response filled with bad symptoms. For people that do have more fungal candida than beneficial flora the undecenoic acid(sf722) seems to be better approach than probiotics(converting the fungal candida to its less pathogenic form).
Timing with probiotics/prebiotics can be very tricky and the individual has to gauge the proper timing depending on their own reactions/level of their candida.
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