I have more good news for you !!!

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  • #90120

    dvjorge
    Participant
    Topics: 283
    Replies: 1369

    I have been suggesting the use of Apo-Lactoferrin and EDTA to candida sufferers for long time. Apo-Lactoferrin is an immune booster and bind with iron inside the gut allowing its excretion. Iron is vital for candida.

    EDTA is a metal chelator with strong antifungal properties. It also bind to iron and mobilize it to be excreted.

    Science has discovered that Lactic Acid bacteria producers don’t growth in the presence of iron, but PATHOGENS (including Candida) do. So, restoring a friendly bacterial community able to produce Acetic and Lactic acid is almost impossible if inflammation and iron are present.

    In other words, Lactobacillus and Bifidobacteriums will accelerate their growing using EDTA and Apo-Lactoferrin. Why not DMSA and DMPS ??? Sure they will chelate iron too.

    Nothing in excess but moderate and temporary may give you what you are looking for.

    Enjoy:

    Could a Probiotic Be Used to Treat Inflammatory Bowel Disease?
    ScienceDaily (Oct. 19, 2011) — Scientists have been unclear for some time about how most probiotics work. A new study has found a scientific ‘design’ for a probiotic that could be used to treat inflammatory bowel disease (IBD), such as Crohn’s disease.

    The research by academics at the University of Bristol’s School of Veterinary Sciences and School of Clinical Medicine is published online in the journal PLoS ONE.

    Most probiotics on the market, such as Lactobacillus andBifidobacterium, are lactic acid bacteria. Although probiotics have been shown to successfully maintain remission in IBD, evidence of their effectiveness in active disease is rare. The researchers have found that this is because an increase in iron levels, which happens during active IBD, inhibits the growth of probiotic bacteria, including Lactobacillus.

    Iron levels increase in the intestine during inflammation, bleeding, during stress and when people are taking iron supplements. Iron is critically important to the growth of most species of bacteria, including pathogens, and its availability is what restricts their growth. It is well known that pathogens increase growth rate by up to 8,000 times when exposed to increased levels of iron. Lactic acid bacteria are unusual as they have evolved not to require iron, and so do not increase growth rate when exposed to it.

    #90121

    dvjorge
    Participant
    Topics: 283
    Replies: 1369

    This research has generated more important questions for me. It is late at night but I will comment more tomorrow.
    Jorge.

    #90126

    Thomas
    Member
    Topics: 71
    Replies: 605

    I read somewhere that iron and magnesium is used by bacteria to build biofilms as a defense. I wonder if our body can suffer lack of both if the bacteria uses them up?
    If we then take iron or magnesium supplements are we not helping the pathogene bacteria building up their defenses?

    cheers
    Thomas

    #90127

    flailingWcandi
    Member
    Topics: 13
    Replies: 277

    dvjorge wrote: This research has generated more important questions for me. It is late at night but I will comment more tomorrow.
    Jorge.

    It certainly opens up more questions for me (like I needed more to be concerned about). I have been diagnosed/tested as anemic for many years. Iron is also associated with Thyroid hormones…..it’s all interconnected but, very confusing to sort out.

    iron/candida/thyroid function

    #90135

    lee26
    Member
    Topics: 0
    Replies: 10

    dvjorge,

    I just posted the info in the op, to a friend in another forum regarding EDTA and Apo-Lactoferrin and they told me Mercury toxic people shouldn’t take EDTA because it is proven this chelator can create EDTA-Mercury complexes and the metal complexes are know to be worse than the simple metals. For example, fluor-aluminum complexes cause more direct hormonal chaos and will go easier to the brain than simple aluminum plus the standard methods of aluminum chelation are useless for this new poison.

    So according to this anyone with mercury toxicity should avoid EDTA. I personally don’t, but just thought it should be added to the thread to be investigated in case anyone with elevated mercury tries it.

    #90139

    dvjorge
    Participant
    Topics: 283
    Replies: 1369

    Ok,
    When I found this article, I told myself that it is the most important article I have found in the last two years.
    Since long time, I have been questioning the effects of the chelation protocols on people suffering CRC.
    First, let me tell you I am an strong believer that Mercury is really toxic for the human body at any amount. I don’t justify the amalgams, thymerosal in vaccines, high mercury loaded fish consumption, etc. I believe in Chelation and the symptoms and damage Mercury causes to the health. I have read enough literature and studies about it and trust in them.

    As many of you know, I have been visiting Candida forums for some years, reading patient stories, treatments, and what people report. I have had chance of accumulating information and to compare it.

    I also know that some of the sulfur based Chelators are powerful antifungal compound since some kind of Sulfa are. That fact generated my doubt about what is the real mechanism some chelators have to benefit people suffering CRC.

    Let think about it. I have been chelating using ALA only for 1 year. I also know people who have used ALA only for more than 2 years to chelate Mercury because an unresponsive fungal overgrowth. Curiously, people who have chosen ALA only don’t report those great result that many other report when they have used DMSA too, and this include myself.

    In other words, ALA is probably the best Mercury chelator, but people who have candidiasis don’t see results using it long term, at least I haven’t found any report of someone using ALA only who claims to be candida free. However, some who have used DMSA and ALA for a few months with an anticandida program have reported to be candida free.

    ALA don’t chelate Iron, but DMSA does it. So, I am suspecting that the real benefit of overcoming a fungal overgrowth after a chelation protocol using DMSA is the iron depletion it causes and no the effect of be eliminating Mercury.

    This article has given me more arguments to suspect it because Iron is vital for candida, but the most relevant is what the article stays about Lactic Acid bacteria.

    It is well known that Lactic Acid bacteria are what offer antagonism mechanisms to candida inside the intestines. Without Lactic Acid bacteria, candida can growth and invade tissue inside the gut. Most people get an intestinal candidiasis when those type of bacteria have been disturbed and reduced. Then, we found now that Iron inhibits the growth of Lactic Acid bacteria in the gut, and iron is boosted when there is intestinal inflammation, a common thing with candida.

    I am imaging a picture of Iron depletion caused by long term DMSA or EDTA where candida is really affected and chances are that the Lactic Acid forming bacteria recover offering their protective mechanisms against candida. I mean the natural protective mechanism people suffering CRC lack.

    So, again, I am not sure that the successful reports regarding to mercury chelation be associated to a real low mercury level after chelation but to secondary mechanisms reached with the use of common chelators.

    Anyway, this discover is fascinating since you know that Iron interfere the successful colonization of Lactobacillus and Bifidobacterium facilitating pathogenic growth including candida and biofilm formations.

    If I am correct, this is bringing a novel therapy to win this battle.

    Jorge.

    #90156

    LRHG
    Member
    Topics: 4
    Replies: 26

    There is something very fundamentally incorrect about this theory Jorge. If one uses DMSA and EDTA and that results in iron depletion, that alone is going to cause symptoms. Iron is needed for the energy cycle and for heme in hemoglobin. And the normal situation in a healthy person would be to have normal iron levels and at the same time normal levels of healthy bacteria. You don’t need to deplete iron in order to have normal bacteria.

    I also did try EDTA for quite a while in a biofilm protocal. It did absolutely nothing for me.

    Maybe iron inhibits lactobacillus and bifido in vitro but I don’t know about the human body where it is stored in ferritin and hemoglobin.

    I would be very concerned about depleting my iron stores using EDTA.

    Susan

    dvjorge wrote: Ok,
    When I found this article, I told myself that it is the most important article I have found in the last two years.
    Since long time, I have been questioning the effects of the chelation protocols on people suffering CRC.
    First, let me tell you I am an strong believer that Mercury is really toxic for the human body at any amount. I don’t justify the amalgams, thymerosal in vaccines, high mercury loaded fish consumption, etc. I believe in Chelation and the symptoms and damage Mercury causes to the health. I have read enough literature and studies about it and trust in them.

    As many of you know, I have been visiting Candida forums for some years, reading patient stories, treatments, and what people report. I have had chance of accumulating information and to compare it.

    I also know that some of the sulfur based Chelators are powerful antifungal compound since some kind of Sulfa are. That fact generated my doubt about what is the real mechanism some chelators have to benefit people suffering CRC.

    Let think about it. I have been chelating using ALA only for 1 year. I also know people who have used ALA only for more than 2 years to chelate Mercury because an unresponsive fungal overgrowth. Curiously, people who have chosen ALA only don’t report those great result that many other report when they have used DMSA too, and this include myself.

    In other words, ALA is probably the best Mercury chelator, but people who have candidiasis don’t see results using it long term, at least I haven’t found any report of someone using ALA only who claims to be candida free. However, some who have used DMSA and ALA for a few months with an anticandida program have reported to be candida free.

    ALA don’t chelate Iron, but DMSA does it. So, I am suspecting that the real benefit of overcoming a fungal overgrowth after a chelation protocol using DMSA is the iron depletion it causes and no the effect of be eliminating Mercury.

    This article has given me more arguments to suspect it because Iron is vital for candida, but the most relevant is what the article stays about Lactic Acid bacteria.

    It is well known that Lactic Acid bacteria are what offer antagonism mechanisms to candida inside the intestines. Without Lactic Acid bacteria, candida can growth and invade tissue inside the gut. Most people get an intestinal candidiasis when those type of bacteria have been disturbed and reduced. Then, we found now that Iron inhibits the growth of Lactic Acid bacteria in the gut, and iron is boosted when there is intestinal inflammation, a common thing with candida.

    I am imaging a picture of Iron depletion caused by long term DMSA or EDTA where candida is really affected and chances are that the Lactic Acid forming bacteria recover offering their protective mechanisms against candida. I mean the natural protective mechanism people suffering CRC lack.

    So, again, I am not sure that the successful reports regarding to mercury chelation be associated to a real low mercury level after chelation but to secondary mechanisms reached with the use of common chelators.

    Anyway, this discover is fascinating since you know that Iron interfere the successful colonization of Lactobacillus and Bifidobacterium facilitating pathogenic growth including candida and biofilm formations.

    If I am correct, this is bringing a novel therapy to win this battle.

    Jorge.

    #90157

    dvjorge
    Participant
    Topics: 283
    Replies: 1369

    LRHG wrote: There is something very fundamentally incorrect about this theory Jorge. If one uses DMSA and EDTA and that results in iron depletion, that alone is going to cause symptoms. Iron is needed for the energy cycle and for heme in hemoglobin. And the normal situation in a healthy person would be to have normal iron levels and at the same time normal levels of healthy bacteria. You don’t need to deplete iron in order to have normal bacteria.

    I also did try EDTA for quite a while in a biofilm protocal. It did absolutely nothing for me.

    Maybe iron inhibits lactobacillus and bifido in vitro but I don’t know about the human body where it is stored in ferritin and hemoglobin.

    I would be very concerned about depleting my iron stores using EDTA.

    Susan

    Ok,
    When I found this article, I told myself that it is the most important article I have found in the last two years.
    Since long time, I have been questioning the effects of the chelation protocols on people suffering CRC.
    First, let me tell you I am an strong believer that Mercury is really toxic for the human body at any amount. I don’t justify the amalgams, thymerosal in vaccines, high mercury loaded fish consumption, etc. I believe in Chelation and the symptoms and damage Mercury causes to the health. I have read enough literature and studies about it and trust in them.

    As many of you know, I have been visiting Candida forums for some years, reading patient stories, treatments, and what people report. I have had chance of accumulating information and to compare it.

    I also know that some of the sulfur based Chelators are powerful antifungal compound since some kind of Sulfa are. That fact generated my doubt about what is the real mechanism some chelators have to benefit people suffering CRC.

    Let think about it. I have been chelating using ALA only for 1 year. I also know people who have used ALA only for more than 2 years to chelate Mercury because an unresponsive fungal overgrowth. Curiously, people who have chosen ALA only don’t report those great result that many other report when they have used DMSA too, and this include myself.

    In other words, ALA is probably the best Mercury chelator, but people who have candidiasis don’t see results using it long term, at least I haven’t found any report of someone using ALA only who claims to be candida free. However, some who have used DMSA and ALA for a few months with an anticandida program have reported to be candida free.

    ALA don’t chelate Iron, but DMSA does it. So, I am suspecting that the real benefit of overcoming a fungal overgrowth after a chelation protocol using DMSA is the iron depletion it causes and no the effect of be eliminating Mercury.

    This article has given me more arguments to suspect it because Iron is vital for candida, but the most relevant is what the article stays about Lactic Acid bacteria.

    It is well known that Lactic Acid bacteria are what offer antagonism mechanisms to candida inside the intestines. Without Lactic Acid bacteria, candida can growth and invade tissue inside the gut. Most people get an intestinal candidiasis when those type of bacteria have been disturbed and reduced. Then, we found now that Iron inhibits the growth of Lactic Acid bacteria in the gut, and iron is boosted when there is intestinal inflammation, a common thing with candida.

    I am imaging a picture of Iron depletion caused by long term DMSA or EDTA where candida is really affected and chances are that the Lactic Acid forming bacteria recover offering their protective mechanisms against candida. I mean the natural protective mechanism people suffering CRC lack.

    So, again, I am not sure that the successful reports regarding to mercury chelation be associated to a real low mercury level after chelation but to secondary mechanisms reached with the use of common chelators.

    Anyway, this discover is fascinating since you know that Iron interfere the successful colonization of Lactobacillus and Bifidobacterium facilitating pathogenic growth including candida and biofilm formations.

    If I am correct, this is bringing a novel therapy to win this battle.

    Jorge.

    Is a partial chelation of Iron what is probably needed. It is an excess of Iron produced in the intestines during an active inflammation or trauma.
    People follow chelation for years using aggressive chelators such as DMSA and don’t have Iron deficiency.
    Jorge.

    #90158

    LRHG
    Member
    Topics: 4
    Replies: 26

    You are getting very specific here Jorge. You say people follow DMSA for years w/o iron depletion yet you suggest people use it to partially deplete iron. How would one know when they have chelated enough iron ? And if the excess iron follows inflammation, I would say the inflammation implies the bacteria are already there (causing the inflammation) before the iron overload.

    Also, one has to think about where the DMSA and EDTA is absorbed ? Is it absorbed before it reaches the part of the intestine where the inflammation is occuring ? If so, I’m going to worry it’s going to chelate the iron in my body out of me instead of the iron out of my intestines.

    Id have to go back over my records to confirm but I think my ferritin took a nosedive when I took EDTA.

    #90165

    dvjorge
    Participant
    Topics: 283
    Replies: 1369

    LRHG wrote: You are getting very specific here Jorge. You say people follow DMSA for years w/o iron depletion yet you suggest people use it to partially deplete iron. How would one know when they have chelated enough iron ? And if the excess iron follows inflammation, I would say the inflammation implies the bacteria are already there (causing the inflammation) before the iron overload.

    Also, one has to think about where the DMSA and EDTA is absorbed ? Is it absorbed before it reaches the part of the intestine where the inflammation is occuring ? If so, I’m going to worry it’s going to chelate the iron in my body out of me instead of the iron out of my intestines.

    Id have to go back over my records to confirm but I think my ferritin took a nosedive when I took EDTA.

    You don’t understand or don’t want to understand. DMSA chelates Iron. It will reduce it in a way or other inside your gut. According to the article, the excess of Iron in the intestines inhibits the growth of Lactic Acid bacteria and promote pathogens. It means an EXCESS of Iron, no the levels you normally need. Oral EDTA is an almost non-absorbed drug. It will act where you need it in this case, inside the gut. It isn’t intended to be used long term but temporary, and if possible taking an Iron free multivitamins and minerals. EDTA is more powerful killing candida than many standard antifungals, so the benefit is double. See the article.!

    Yes, we need to be using all the resources because this monster is really hard to cure. If it were easy, I weren’t here long time ago.

    Candida sufferers are always looking for “news” because it is nightmare to get well one time the fungus growth.

    What is currently advocated is noneffective enough to deal with it in most of the cases.

    Anyway, you can take or not what you want. I deserve my right to post about what I find. Who cares if you matter or not ??

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/11077392/

    Jorge.

    #90199

    LRHG
    Member
    Topics: 4
    Replies: 26

    Jorge,
    When someone presents a theory or concept we should be able to discuss it in a non-combative, productive manner. There is no value at all in being defensive or insulting, both of which you did above.

    “You don’t understand or don’t want to understand. DMSA chelates Iron. It will reduce it in a way or other inside your gut.”

    As well as inside the body – let’s present the whole picture.

    “ According to the article, the excess of Iron in the intestines inhibits the growth of Lactic Acid bacteria and promote pathogens”
    I read that lactic acid don’t need it, not that it inhibits it.

    “ It means an EXCESS of Iron, no the levels you normally need.”
    I got that. What I’m saying is if the inflammation was causing the excess iron, the bacteria were ALREADY THERE before the iron , thus the inflammation

    ” Oral EDTA is an almost non-absorbed drug. It will act where you need it in this case, inside the gut. It isn’t intended to be used long term but temporary, and if possible taking an Iron free multivitamins and minerals.”
    I didn’t realize it was non absorbed when I first posted. Now I do. But still, it’s going to affect iron stores.

    “EDTA is more powerful killing candida than many standard antifungals, so the benefit is double. See the article.!”
    That’s nice but let’s remember it was applied directly to the colonies, not many feet away where it’s diluted.

    “Yes, we need to be using all the resources because this monster is really hard to cure. If it were easy, I weren’t here long time ago.
    Candida sufferers are always looking for “news” because it is nightmare to get well one time the fungus growth”
    What is currently advocated is noneffective enough to deal with it in most of the cases.”

    I agree Jorge and I’ve come up with many theories in my own case and I am still not well so clearly I’ve been wrong each time. Time will tell if my latest theory is correct. I’ve had to rethink everything even whether or not I have candid which I now think I may not. But, Jorge, I run my ideas past people and they will point holes in them and I accept that and consider it. That is how progress is made. I like it when people point out inconsistencies – it makes me think harder and hopefully I’m getting closer to the truth.

    “Anyway, you can take or not what you want. I deserve my right to post about what I find. Who cares if you matter or not ??”
    Of course you do. Well many people think I matter. LOL. What a thing to say.

    Anyway I don’t wish to continue Jorge and I doubt you do. I considered this iron fact long ago and did take EDTA and other supps and it did nothing for me. I tried for many many months, every other week, EDTA and other ‘biofilm’ supps.

    And for what it is worth I do have very low ferritin which in itself can make one very ill. And when you pay attention to the boards, you will see it’s very common.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/11077392/

    #90202

    Bucephalus
    Member
    Topics: 6
    Replies: 87

    Where do you get EDTA and ALactoferrin?

    #90216

    flailingWcandi
    Member
    Topics: 13
    Replies: 277

    LRHG wrote:
    I do have very low ferritin which in itself can make one very ill. And when you pay attention to the boards, you will see it’s very common.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/11077392/

    Perhaps, low ferritin is part of the chain reaction….tail chasing, low ferritin, hypothyroidism and candida???

    low iron/ferritin and hypothyroidism

    anemia and candida

    There are reasons why adrenal/thyroid keep popping up in perhaps being a major cause of candida issues.

    #90238

    LRHG
    Member
    Topics: 4
    Replies: 26

    I think so too and I’m also working on adrenals/thyroid/oxidative stress. As well as looking into RBC potassium.

    I did an experiment in the summer and took 50mcg T3 hormone. Nothing else was working for me – strict diet, antifungals, biofilm protocals and more.
    That 50mcg T3 did more for me than anything else I had ever tried in 12 years. Popping a 50mcg T3 though isn’t the right way to address it so I’ve stepped back and joined a couple of thyroid groups, ordered Paul Robinson’s book and had a consult with Janie, owner of the STTM site. I also ordered teh cortisol saliva test.

    That first link you shared said you are not supposed to take iron with calcium which I have been doing. So I’ll correct that.

    What about you ? How are you addressing the iron/adrenal/thyroid ?

    flailingWcandi wrote:

    I do have very low ferritin which in itself can make one very ill. And when you pay attention to the boards, you will see it’s very common.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/11077392/

    Perhaps, low ferritin is part of the chain reaction….tail chasing, low ferritin, hypothyroidism and candida???

    low iron/ferritin and hypothyroidism

    anemia and candida

    There are reasons why adrenal/thyroid keep popping up in perhaps being a major cause of candida issues.

    #90257

    dvjorge
    Participant
    Topics: 283
    Replies: 1369

    LRHG wrote: I think so too and I’m also working on adrenals/thyroid/oxidative stress. As well as looking into RBC potassium.

    I did an experiment in the summer and took 50mcg T3 hormone. Nothing else was working for me – strict diet, antifungals, biofilm protocals and more.
    That 50mcg T3 did more for me than anything else I had ever tried in 12 years. Popping a 50mcg T3 though isn’t the right way to address it so I’ve stepped back and joined a couple of thyroid groups, ordered Paul Robinson’s book and had a consult with Janie, owner of the STTM site. I also ordered teh cortisol saliva test.

    That first link you shared said you are not supposed to take iron with calcium which I have been doing. So I’ll correct that.

    What about you ? How are you addressing the iron/adrenal/thyroid ?

    I do have very low ferritin which in itself can make one very ill. And when you pay attention to the boards, you will see it’s very common.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/11077392/

    Perhaps, low ferritin is part of the chain reaction….tail chasing, low ferritin, hypothyroidism and candida???

    low iron/ferritin and hypothyroidism

    anemia and candida

    There are reasons why adrenal/thyroid keep popping up in perhaps being a major cause of candida issues.

    You have mentioned Biofilm protocols several times. I am curious why are you followed them.
    Do you have bacterial overgrowth or any other resistant bacteria ??

    The biofilm protocols I am aware of disrupts bacterial biofilm matrix, no candida albicans biofilm.
    Bacterial biofilm matrix is composed of mostly Iron, Magnesium, and Calcium.

    This isn’t the case of Candida Albicans that the matrix is mostly glucose.

    The invented web protocols to disrupt biofilms may work in the case of bacteria, but no in the case of candida.

    Jorge.

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