- October 8, 2012 at 7:59 pm #90752
Hi all, I sent a post a handful of days ago & I was wondering if some of you could please have a look at it. I don’t know if it just slipped through or whether the length was a problem (it was v long I admit). Thanks to the one person who responded to my Inbox – much appreciated.
I’m disillusioned about years of candida treatment that haven’t really got me far at all, and I’m really wondering whether it’s all worth it. I’m that fed up that I’ve just decided to eat anything at all, which probably isn’t good.
But the mega-strict diets have just not got me to anywhere near ‘normal’, and they are socially impossible. How do I play a season of sport (ie do something normal) with a bunch of guys and go anywhere close to something like Stage 2, let alone cleanse or Stage 1, in a country (Aust) where no one I know has even heard of ‘candida’? I would perhaps have more resolve if I’d had some success with strict Stage 1 diet over 2 mths – but my symptoms came racing back within 17 days of very modest introductions of food!
For the last 5 yrs I have taken every antifungal known to humankind, often 10x more than the recommended dose. I would have expected some progress from this but if anything the symptoms have deteriorated & I’m basically ‘addicted’ to large doses of antifungals to get half way to normal.
I need some urgent tips because I’m shaky & fearful & gut ‘popping’ inside – not helped by having given away most diet restrictions (just given up, also testing whether previous antifungal relief has been psychosomatic or somehow addictive). I’ll stop right here otherwise my post will get too long. For other details see my earlier post.October 9, 2012 at 4:23 am #90757
Clare_MemberTopics: 12Replies: 134
Have you PMed Able for the stricter diet food list?
I am on it, and it worked for me.
The reality is, if you want to go out with your mates and eat with them or keep up with them in sports, you will not heal. If you have candida, you will have to make a choice.
If you go on the strict diet, and have die off, you likely have candida. If this is the case, you will likely have to stick to the diet for many months to start getting back to normal. That has been the case for me.
Unfortunately, it will put a dent in your life, but it is worth the effort.October 9, 2012 at 10:31 am #90767
Hello guitar 02,
Have you been taking probiotics at all throughout your treatment? This is the single most important thing you need to recover from candida overgrowth, not antifungals. Rotating to a variety of different antifungals is not productive and can actually be detrimental to your treatment:
Have you tried SF722? This is a great long term antifungal you can take whether on the protocol or not.
If you are not doing a strict diet that eliminates rice, potatoes, carrots, corn, nuts and seeds, etc. then you likely won’t find a cure. You need to starve the candida as much as possible in order to make up ground on this infection and by doing a half ass diet, you will not make any progress. This is not good because you will continue to degrade the rest of the body.
But the mega-strict diets have just not got me to anywhere near ‘normal’, and they are socially impossible.
Well it sounds like you can’t do the diet because you are making excuses (sorry about being tough), but this is silly. You can’t go around and eat healthy? You can’t stop playing sports for a period of time in order to heal from a debilitating illness? You need to get your priorities in check and your health should be the most important thing in your life; you only live once!
Are you eating organic? This is also very essential in order to get over candida.
Have you tried eating heaps of coconut oil? This will create a beneficial environment in the gut that we prevent candida from thriving.
What supplements have you tried? Have you done anything to help heal leaky gut?
We developed this forum protocol if you are interested:
You may want to consider consulting a naturopathic doctor. They will understand your woes and can aid you in your recovery with specific supplements. They will say many of the same things I have written in this post. It can take as long as 6-18 months to recover from candida overgrowth and you should be more serious about your health because otherwise you can develop long term consequences.
-rasterFebruary 22, 2013 at 12:39 pm #98283
Hello again Forum
Thank you Raster and Clare for posting your replies to my posts in early Oct 2012. I know this is a long time between posts, especially for someone as desperate as me to get well. Rest assured I did not drop off the face of the earth and have been continuing to work on various treatment options, including the many useful suggestions you provided at the time.
I’m still not in a great state, although that is in part due to choices I have made (for instance to continue playing sport and not go on a strict diet all the time), but I am planning for the six months over winter when I can make another serious assault on my health.
In the meantime I have some more big questions/comments I was looking for some feedback on:
* Antifungals: I have hit myself with a sledgehammer with v.high doses of antifungals for years, without probiotics. I partly don’t regret it because I thought it was the right thing at the time, and it did give me some quality of life I hadn’t had in ages, so I could at least function! But I now realise this was a bad choice & I have to change. The prob now is that I am clearly addicted to v.high doses of antifungals. I can’t go one day without them without seeing my symptoms return with a vengeance. I don’t know exactly why this is the case. I thought the antifungals would kill the candida. But clearly the candida is bouncing back on a daily basis and perhaps the antifungals are killing the good bacteria too. Have I abused my body so hard with antifungals that I have seriously whacked the good bacteria too? I keep reading that oregano oil, olive leaf, wormwood, grapefruit seed extract etc only target the bad bacteria, but I find that hard to believe. Any opinions? I need good advice because I take these on a daily basis (rotated).
* Probiotics – I think this is the missing link. Raster brought the point home. I have clearly not supplemented treatment with good flora. This is what I have tried to fix over the last four months. Unfortunately the gains I’ve made have been minimal. I drink 300ml of milk kefir on a daily basis, and used to drink about the same of water kefir, but as soon as I take away the antifungals the symptoms return big time. Clearly ingesting huge amounts of kefir makes little or no difference. I don’t understand this – I thought it was packed with huge amounts of good bacteria that would crowd out the bad bacteria and restore balance. For this reason and others I am suspecting that candida is not the only problem, or may not even be the main problem (that’s another story).
* Mixing antifungals & probiotics – have I just been cancelling them out? Specifically, do the antifungals just kill whatever the kefir & capsules put in, even if I space them out by 12 hrs? In other words, should I try to get on probiotics but no antifungals? (this will be v hard without a v v strict diet)
* Eating blended up raw swedes – good antifungal? Does it do the job of keeping the fungus low but not harming the probiotics?
* Stools: I don’t really have any problem with my stools. I go once a day usually and the stools are firm but smooth. Textbook really. Is this a sign that candida is not the issue? Or is it a sign that the antifungals are doing a job? Do you have to have heaps of flatulence & irregular bowel movements to have candida?
* Symptoms: I strongly believe (after a lot of thought and some feedback from others) that the main symptoms (anxiety, weakness, shaking, histamine-like reaction) are not in fact directly the result of candida toxins, but some kind of ultra-exaggerated immune system reaction of the body, whether against the candida yeast or something else. I have had several periods (lasting hours) where I am virtually symptom free, and the bad symptoms can sometimes set in within a few minutes. Likewise if I feel rotten I can often take a lot of antifungals and the next mornign I feel like new. Sometimes I have to say the opposite occurs – ie feeling OK then take antifungals & my body reacts badly. Anyway these changes seem too sudden to be accurately describing candida symptoms. Able, Raster and other ‘experienced campaigners’ – what are your views?
* Die off: to be honest I’ve never seemed to have it (at least much). What does this mean?
* Candidase – what is your view? Will huge doses of Cellulase really eat the bad bugs??
* SF722 – thanks for the tip. I’ll try that. Are you saying that antifungals are bad news but SF722 is unique and different?
* Coconut oil: tried that and it didn’t seem to work, plus it has v high salicylates/amines which are a killer for me – make me anxious & hyper.
* Strictness: I take your points that you have to be committed and not ‘half-assed’. I feel I would be more committed if I knew what to actually commit to, and had some certainty that the commitment would work. I have to be honest (not an excuse just being upfront) my experience on 2.5 mths of strict diet was OK but did not see a transformation or anything, and the symptoms returned within 17 days of very modest inclusions of ‘Stage 3’ foods. This is pretty demoralising. Unless perhaps the probiotics are the real key if I try it again. I am currently working with my doctor to investigate whether there are other factors in the mix. Any experience or tips here? Has anyone had to take a step back or sideways to address some other parallel conditions that could be holding them back?
* Heavy metals: One of my big theories at the moment is that the thing that’s holding me back is overload of heavy metals. Should I start chelating hard right now? Is the presence of heavy metsls causing my body to be hypersensitive to any toxins or fungal matter? In other words is it perhaps not the amount of candida growing in the body, but the fact that my body is overreacting to what are in fact normal (or even low) amounts? Anyone have any views on this? I have been reading a lot about chelation over on Curezone, and some people are saying that you will never beat down candida unless you get the metals down too. Views?
Thanks once again for reading. I appreciated your help last time and I hope to hear from some wise voices once more.
Guitar 02February 22, 2013 at 3:21 pm #98286
I think you should try to get a proper diagnosis if you can afford it. If you haven’t had any die-off, it either means you have a strong liver, or you don’t have candida overgrowth. There are things that are similar to candida overgrowth such as parasites, h.pylori, and SIBO (small intestinal bacteria overgrowth) that can be killed by antifungals.
A lot of your symptoms are liver symptoms (anxiety, weakness, shaking, histamine-like reaction) minus the histamine reactions. Have you been tested for histamines and have tried taking vitamin C which can reduce histamines? A lot of people who have candida have way more symptoms than this such as what is shown in this list:
I will write more later today in response to your questions.
-rasterFebruary 22, 2013 at 6:29 pm #98303
SF722 undecenoic acid is a great long term antifungal that is pretty powerful and you likely will notice major improvement after taking it.
Candidase is an enzyme product and there are other superior enzyme products when compared to this one; I take one called pro-gest for instance and this has worked great for me.
You can take probiotics and antifungals at different times and this won’t cancel them out.
I would get tested for heavy metal toxicity before you start chelation. Also, you should have a neutral pH before chelation, otherwise it will extract too many beneficial minerals from the body. I am going to start chelation within the next few months and should be interesting.
-rasterFebruary 23, 2013 at 2:13 am #98339
KagMemberTopics: 18Replies: 402
Sorry, I hadn’t seen this post before. I am wondering what made you think that you had candida in the first place. Most people have a symptom that sort of puts them “over the edge” so to speak and makes them lean towards a candida diagnosis.
Also, it seems as if the antifungals helped, then you must have some sort of fungal problem. The problem with yeast, is it can build up a resistance to medicines much in the way that bacteria do to antibiotics, so at this point, you may have super-charged yeast.
I tried the diet in the beginning for a little while and then quit, thinking I was done. I truly believe that this is a lifestyle change. It has been very hard for me socially and physically but sooo much better than having burning, rashy lips all the time. In order to “cure” yourself, you have to stay on the diet for at least 6 months and even then I don’t think you should ever go back to eating a high-carb/sugar diet. It just flat out isn’t good for you.
There are no two ways about it, this diet sucks. But if you do have candida and want to get better, you will have to do it for a long time.
I agree that should try to get tested and see if that is indeed your problem. And definitely take probiotics. You probably need them from all those diflucan you took.February 23, 2013 at 7:44 am #98360
alexalgebraMemberTopics: 41Replies: 643
Most people have to do the strict diet for 6-12 months and seem to say around month 4 is when they start feeling a little better. I’m 70 days in and definitely not feeling better yet…but I know my body is fighting and the diet is a huge help in that.March 18, 2013 at 12:27 pm #100966
Thank you Raster, Kag, Alexalgebra and Clare for your responses to my posts.
To answer some of your questions:
* Raster: Yes I am also doubting whether I have candida, and am trying some more tests (stool tests) with my doctor. Problem is that I’ve had a range of blood & stool tests before over 10 yrs, & they never showed up much of interest, except ‘possible presence of yeasts’ and that I wasn’t digesting all my fats and proteins (would be pretty common in most of the population I reckon!). Anyhow this new stool test is comprehensive and tests for a number of different things (incl heavy metals) so we will see.
* Kag & Raster: The reason I’ve thought candida is the problem so far is because of the intense symptoms that only seem to go away temporarily with very large doses of antifungals. No other illness can explain this…except maybe the ones Raster mentions (parasites, h.pylori and SIBO). I thought about something like this. But my last stool test ruled these out I think. Plus I hoover down heaps of olive leaf and Chinese Wormwood every night. It would be impossible for any of the above to survive in my gut surely! But I will raise this with my doctor.
* Raster: thanks for the tip about ‘liver symptoms’ Can you tell me more about these?
* Kag: Definitely worried about the idea of a supercharged yeast. It seems like the symptoms are closing in on me, and I’m having to go on stricter and stricter diets, and take more and more of the antifungals, just to keep symptoms at bay. 4-5 yrs ago things were not great but I could at least eat a range of things & get by with a wormwood & olive leaf tea at night. But lately I get reactions from everything I eat, within 30 mins, if it is not from the strict candida diet. Plus on top of that I have to avoid a heap of foods with high amines and salicylates, because they make me feel sick too (in a different way).
* Kag: have been working on taking a lot of probiotics, especially milk kefir. UNfortunately it hasn’t worked. No real change in symptoms. I thought it was helping early on, but I was also on holidays so I think it was just the lack of stress. Now I am back at work, I reckon I am actually reacting badly when I take too much kefir. If anything I think it feeds whatever is in the gut, or causes the very reactions I am seeking to control.
* All: I got a private message from someone on this forum who suggested that my condition may not be candida, but yeast/mold hypersensitivity (slight difference). The theory is that it’s not candida toxins that are causing the symptoms, but hypersensitivity to yeast/mold.
This makes some sense, and would explain why my symptoms go away so quickly after taking various antifungals, and come back so quickly after eating or drinking the wrong foods and drinks. It would also explain why my symptoms get worse when I am tired or stressed, and better on holidays (when believe it or not I could even drink the odd beer so long as I kept up the kefir and nightly olive leaf & wormwood tea). This would also explain why I’ve never seemed to have much of a die-off problem or problems with passing stools – ie. there is no candida problem at all, it’s just that my body is reacting in a very exaggerated way to the very tiny bit of yeast that is in the gut. Does this sound right?
Can anyone on this forum comment on this ‘hypersensitivity’ theory and whether it has affected them? Is it different to candida or part and parcel of the same disease state? What are the treatments and are they different from candida treatments? **I’d like to know in particular, do I concentrate on getting the remaining amount of yeast out of the gut (even if it is tiny)? Or do I switch the focus to something else, like ways (if they exist) to stop the body being hypersensitive to what are normal levels of yeast?March 18, 2013 at 12:39 pm #100968
Also, one question I am itching to get an answer for: have the very high doses of natural antifungals (mainly oregano oil, olive leaf and wormwood) taken on a daily basis for years completely wiped out the flora in my gut? Or is it not that serious? I want to get off the antifungals but I have not yet found a way to stop. I would love to just take heaps of probiotics and stop the antifungals completely, but the symptoms are really terrible if I stop. So I am limited to taking kefir and the antifungals on the same day, at best.
Sheesh, I have no idea sometimes what on earth is wrong with me. Guess I have to be patient for the next test results.March 18, 2013 at 5:20 pm #100989
Here is my post on liver symptoms:
-rasterMarch 19, 2013 at 1:06 am #101039
jameskepParticipantTopics: 25Replies: 220
If your gut flora is completely wiped out then you would be completely constipated. Do you suffer from any constipation or alternating diarrhea?
Your not the first person to have no results from kefir. Kefir are plant strains and really are not human compatible. There is no research or proof of the strains in kefir actually colonizing. The strains in kefir really don’t match up to whats in the human gut.This is an example of whats in our colon.
Bacteria commonly found in the human colon
Bacterium Incidence (%)
Bacteroides fragilis 100
Bacteroides melaninogenicus 100
Bacteroides oralis 100
Enterococcus faecalis 100
Escherichia coli 100
Klebsiella sp. 40-80
Enterobacter sp. 40-80
Bifidobacterium bifidum 30-70
Staphylococcus aureus 30-50
Clostridium perfringens 25-35
Proteus mirabilis 5-55
Peptostreptococcus sp. ?common
Peptococcus sp. ?common
Clostridium tetani 1-35
Clostridium septicum 5-25
Pseudomonas aeruginosa 3-11
Salmonella enteritidis 3-7
Compare those Strains found in kefir:
The main issue I see with kefir is the % of yeast strains to bacteria strains. The human gut is mostly bacteria, so kefir does not match up with the human gut very well as far as the bacteria to yeast ratio.
The main reasons why some may get benefits from milk kefir is the bacteria can thrive off the fatty acids from the milk and to some degree generate beneficial acids from it.
Probably not a good idea for people that have yeast sensitivities to be doing water(sugar) kefir, coconut(fructose) kefir , or kombuchu. The sugars in those beverages set up a good environment for the yeast strains. My red flag goes up when these beverages have a mild alcoholic taste.March 20, 2013 at 2:59 am #101171
KagMemberTopics: 18Replies: 402
Hey Guitar, you should talk to AlexAlgebra about leakygut. It seems that there are a lot of people on here that either develop leakygut or already have it. I don’t understand it as well as I do but I know that it causes you to have more and more food sensitivities. I am not well-versed in mold or yeast sensitivities. Personally, I would think that everyone on here would be sensitive to yeast in some way. I think I have always had a tendency towards problems with yeast and taking several long doses of antibiotics the last several year just tipped me over the edge.
As for probiotics, kefir doesn’t really do anything for me at all. That said, the protocol calls for it and I know it has helped a ton of people. I don’t know what kind of probiotics you are taking but the kind I take has 50 billion in one pill of ten different types of beneficials. I noticed a marked improvement when I ratched up the amount I was getting. I was taking a probiotic that just had 5 billion.
Also, something else to keep in mind, just because something is natural, doesn’t mean it isn’t strong or good for you. I took oregano oil for about a week and had to stop, it was just not agreeing with me. I think what you need is to listen to your body and stay on the diet long term. It sounds like you do have systemic yeast, although obviously I could be wrong. I take my antifungals and my probiotics at different times of the day and I take them with food.
Make sure to ask someone about leakygut, because it sounds like you have it.
Good luck dear!!
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